Unreasonable Pin Placements
 

Over this winter I have noticed some pretty unusual and, frankly, unfair pin placements. Many have been within 4 or 5 feet of the fringe and often they have been on steep slopes at the same time. Most have been on the executive courses but I have seen some on the championship courses as well.

Today (3/26/16) I played Escambia and 8 of the 9 pins were near the fringe and most were up on steep slopes as well. We all had problems with the very sharp breaks, having the ball run way past the hole or coming up just short. While there’s no excuse for missing a putt, no matter the situation, but then again, there’s no excuse for unreasonable pin placements either.

One day a few months ago I played golf with a fellow who worked as a starter. We were having to deal with similarly difficult pin placements and he told us that the staff who place the pins are not golfers. I would hope that their superiors would be, at the very least, familiar with the game and pin placements. There should be guidelines for all the golf courses for reasonable placement of the pins.

We’re not pros playing for the big bucks. We play for recreation and fun. The unreasonable pin placements take some of the enjoyment out of the game.

I always think sand traps, water and trees are put in unfair places.

Besides, moving the cups to all areas of the green is good for the greens.

Enjoy the journey.

When you encounter situations like this, contact the facility manager/pro at the country club responsible for the executive course you are on and let them know. They will investigate and have the hole position changed if they agree. Unfortunately, it won't help you, but those playing later will thank you.

This happened to us at Roosevelt #9 one day when the hole was cut at the top of the false front. Putts that were short would roll back of the green and putts from above the holed would roll off the green unless they went in. Putts from either side would roll off the front of the green if they missed the hole. We contacted Havana and they changed the hole. They also contacted the contractor to let them know about the hole position.

Heheh. The fact is...pros would never play pin positions like many we face. USGA has guidelines/rules and many local pin placements would not meet them.

But I don't worry about it. I think it's so they can just keep the locations moving and keep the greens in better shape. Sometimes I just chuckle a little, maybe give myself a bit longer gimme than usual, and move on. :)

If all pin placements were in the perfect place where would be the challenge.

There's perfect, then there's playable. The vast majority are just fine. A few...not so much. :)

So true
 

Where would the fun be if everyone scored the same. Agree completely with you.

I agree on the pin placements but one thing bothers me more and that is the domes around the holes caused by improper hole cutter removal. Watch any pro golf and you'll see the hole on a flat even surface where the ball does not make a severe turn just as it reaches the hole or it goes in and out or rims around. This raises all our scores significantly.

How in the world do pin placements make everyone score the same???Challenge?!? I must play a different game than you do. If all pin placements were at the bottom of a funnel, golf would still manage to humiliate and demoralize me. Must be why I love it so much! :icon_wink:

... and if all were in the worst place, like 8 of 9 today, where's the enjoyment? Just a difference placement of 3 or 4 feet would have been just fine.

If all the placements are in the easiest locations, you still wouldn't see everyone score the same.

I agree. What stood out to us today was that 8 of 9 were bad. One or two is a challenge but 8 takes the fun out of the game.

Thanks. Good to know. :coolsmiley:

For all who remember back 12 -15 years the same thing we have all encountered here in TV golf courses, that is stupid pin placement ,not tough not easy but stupid on the side of a hill on the green happened to Payne Steward in the PGA Tournament. It cost him the Tournament. He complained & the PGA agreed& since then both the PGA & the USGA have adopted rules on where a pin can & can not be placed & they can no longer be placed on slopes that could be used for Down Hill Sking. I believe it is called a Stemp Meter. True at the time Steward missed his putt all the other players had to hit the same cup, after that indecent the placement of the pin was defined. I played Okeechobee yesterday & encountered 5 or 6 stupid pin placements 3 or 4 foot from the edge & a couple on the side of a hill. It would be nice if the people who place the pins were given a heads up on where to place them & where not to place them.

OP, I agree there should be "supervision" by somebody who knows USGA rules regarding pin placement and perhaps more important supervision on the cutting and placement of the cup. We deserve better for the good of the game. The Pros should provide instruction and routinely monitor the courses for pins and holes that are not in compliance.

Why don't they make the easy pin placements on courses rated a 1 and then make them increasingly challenging till you get to a 4 rated course? Then, as we get better we can move to a higher level of challenge. They have already started using the larger cups and I suspect that will expand to accommodate those of us that just can't put...:)

Well let's see you woke up this morning. it's was a beautiful day so you could play, you enjoyed the company you were with. A few holes caused you to pause and think a different hole placement would have made this day perfect. Nope first three are good for me, since are no fans or sponsors to be upset with me.
I am happy that some one changes the placement so when I wake up, enjoy the game, and the company, tomorrow it's different. Just have different priorities and someone give me a challenge to think how to putt better.
If you have ever played Oakland Hills in Michigan there's some pin placement that really would drive you crazy

Don't mean to sound snooty, but there are pin placements that simply do not even come close to meeting USGA requirements for pin placements. There are many requirements, but here is one I'll bet some on this thread are referring to.

"An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole."

Check out the full list here: United States Golf Association

Don't let it ruin your day...agreed. But don't be under the false presumption that the pros deal with some of these more extreme placements. They don't. At least not in tournament play.

Just asking, do you know the USGA rules regrading pin placements?

Try Pool the surface is flat six holes to shot for. If golf was easy we would all be on tour!!

Right on. The people placing holes are clearly ignorant of the difficulty level they create. Played Tarpon tonight- at least three silly placements. Slows play.

Far too difficult for the level of players on execs

Poor pin placement slows down the pace of play but I don't care. What bothers me more is the mound (if that is what you would call it) around the hole that makes the ball veer off an inch from the hole.

:agree:

Yea, pin placement just unfair, wind too, sore elbow .............

I take the course as I find it. No excuses for me, no do overs and no six inch holes. And I do add a stroke to my game if the ball moves

Yes, I do take the course as I find it and make no excuses. But that doesn't make unreasonable reasonable. BTW, I enjoy the challenge of a windy day on the golf course and I certainly have no complaint for its creator. :icon_wink:

Thanks Polar Bear.

Here's the beginning of USGA Rule 16. Note that while it says there are no rules, good judgement should be used.

Rule 16:
"Requirements for Hole Location on the Putting Green

"Q. What are the requirements for establishing a hole location on the putting green?

"A. The USGA frequently receives requests for guidelines with respect to selection of hole locations on the putting greens, particularly during competitions. There are no rules regarding hole locations, so there is no such thing as an "illegal" hole location. The USGA believes that many factors affect selection of hole locations. The first and most important is good judgment in deciding what will give fair results. Do not be tricky in locating holes."

Rule 16

Requirements for Hole Location on the Putting Green

Q. What are the requirements for establishing a hole location on the putting green?

A. The USGA frequently receives requests for guidelines with respect to selection of hole locations on the putting greens, particularly during competitions. There are no rules regarding hole locations, so there is no such thing as an "illegal" hole location. The USGA believes that many factors affect selection of hole locations. The first and most important is good judgment in deciding what will give fair results. Do not be tricky in locating holes. Following are specific points:

Study the design of the hole as the architect intended it to be played. Know the length of the shot to the green and how it may be affected by the probable conditions for the day - that is, wind and other weather elements, conditions of the turf from which the shot will be played, and holding quality of the green.
There must be enough putting green surface between the hole and the front and the sides of the green to accommodate the required shot. For example, if the hole requires a long iron or wood shot to the green, the hole should be located deeper in the green and further from its sides than should be the case if the hole requires a short pitch shot. In any case, it is recommended that generally the hole be located at least four paces from any edge of the green. If a bunker is close to the edge, or if the ground slopes away from the edge, the distance should be greater, especially if the shot is more than a pitch. Consideration should be given to fair opportunity for recovery after a reasonably good shot that just misses the green.
An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.
Consider the condition of nearby turf, especially taking care to avoid old hole plugs which have not completely healed.
Holes should be cut as nearly on the vertical as possible, not plumb with the contour of the green.
There should be a balanced selection of hole locations for the entire course with respect to left, right, central, front and back positions. For example, avoid too many left positions with resulting premium on drawn or hooked shots.

All of this means that the person placing the hole needs to have a basic understanding of the game and good judgment. currently every principle addressed by the USGA statement is being ignored frequently.

Much of the time those domes are not caused by improper cup cutting, but rather by many golfers stepping in a circle within a foot or so of the hole. What's actually happening is that an area from one to two feet from the hole is being depressed by foot traffic while the area within one foot from the hole remains high. Hardly anyone steps that close to the hole when retrieving their ball, nor should they. This is usually the case after several groups have played the course.
If six groups play the course that means twenty four people have stepped into he area to which I am referring. It doesn't take much more than that to create the illusion of a mound, or what Dave Pelz refers to s the lumpy donut.
Even with this situation, most putts hit at the proper speed on the correct line will go in. Putts that die in the hole have little or no chance of going in.
The perfect speed for a putt is the speed that would cause the ball to roll 15"-18" past the hole if it misses the hole. Slower than 15" and the lumpy donut takes affect the the ball will be thrown off line at the last second. Faster than 18" and the chance of a ball not exactly in the center of the holes going in is greatly reduced. There comes a point where even a ball that hits the hole directly in the center won't go in if it's going to fast.
Work on the speed of your putts. Lay a club down 15" behind the hole and putt from various distances trying to make the ball just come to rest against the club.

Yea, that's my feeling as well. The game was never meant to be perfect. People like to compare the conditions that the see on television. I like to have people look at the conditions that existed over the first couple hundred years that the game was played. They played on pastures and the rule was to play the ball as it lies. Today if conditions are less than perfect people want to take preferred lies. Hitting out of bad lies is a skill required to play the game.
When I played I found nothing so satisfying than to hit a great shot out of a bad lie and never say anything about it. I knew what a great job I had done and that was enough for me.
You'll find that good players practice playing out of bad lies.
Bad hole locations? Try putting on your front lawn to get an understanding of how the game was originally played.
We actually only have to look back less than 100 years to see the scores shot by Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen, Same Snead, Hogan and the rest of the players of that era and know that the conditions that we have today are far better then a US Open course in the 1930s or 40s.

You can complain, bitch and whine all you want on this thread and it will accomplish nothing.
The answer is in Mike's post #3.
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When you encounter situations like this, contact the facility manager/pro at the country club responsible for the executive course you are on and let them know. They will investigate and have the hole position changed if they agree. Unfortunately, it won't help you, but those playing later will thank you.

Some of you are getting a bit self righteous in my opinion. Most of us play bad lies. We play in bad conditions. We take every penalty stroke we earn. That's called playing by USGA rules. Watching your straight uphill putt stop two inches short of the cup and then start rolling back to you is not playing by the rules.

Please keep in mind many of us the challenge is being able to be out there.

Just how many strokes could possibly be attributed to bad pin placement.

Sorta related. How many can honestly say playing the courses with the "big" holes has improved their game/score?

Eliminating all water and underbrush and bushes and woods would help a lot more. :D

Bad and inexperienced golfers don't get it. Many are out there to visit and just eat up time. They have little interest in sport or competition. To them you could mow the greens once a week and they would say "who cares, it's the same for everyone". You are wasting your time trying to convince them it's more than just walking around and socializing. That's why you have groups that seem to have to discuss where they are going to eat on the ninth green while a group is waiting to tee off. That's why the bunkers look like crap most of the time; why there are way too many unrepaired pitch marks on the greens. That's why you have golfers that don't care how slow they are playing, and really don't care who they are inconveniencing. Not in TV, of course; other places.

BTK - I would add sand to your list as well.

Couldn't have said it better. :BigApplause:

:boom: How right you are....

1] Hit the ball to the center of the green and 2 putt.
2] If you are not that good make your target in between the pin and the furthest hazard to give yourself a little wiggle room unless the hazard is in the front. Hit an extra club if it's in the front.
3] If you care that much about score, practice and play from the back tees on a championship course.

Played TDS today; some (a lot) of the front and back pin placements were about 2 good steps (6') from the fringe; greens were in REALLY good shape other than being a little slow.

I didn't intend to get self righteous. I was only explaining my feelings when I play.

That's the great thing about golf. Everyone can enjoy it in their own way. If you just want to go and knock the ball around a pasture, that's fine by me. If you want to compete at the highest level, that's fine as well. There's room for everyone in this great game.

By the way, I've played US Open courses where if you didn't get on the right side of the hole you had almost no chance of keeping the ball on the green when you putt.I've also played tour courses where if you didn't get your ball to the hole it would come back to your feet. No one likes it, but sometimes that's what you run into. I wouldn't allow myself to get that upset over it. It's not worth it. In tournament golf where those kind of things can make a difference between making a cut or making a check, it can be extremely frustrating, but in casual rounds of golf, I try not to do that to myself.

Unreasonable Pin Placements
 

I don't doubt you for a second, but I'm fairly certain the experiences you describe were not at a pro tour event, or likely any USGA sanctioned event. And it's not because of any doubt about your skills :).



I'm assuming of course when you say "didn't get your ball to the hole", you mean it got pretty close to the hole. If it never got within a few feet of the whole, that's a different story altogether. But if did get close to the hole and then rolled back to your feet, it did not meet the USGA requirements for pin placement. It's that simple.



One area where I totally agree with you...I would never get upset about a pin placement here in TV. It's simply not worth it. Maybe bring it to the-powers-that-be's attention if it happened often enough just to see if they could improve education of the guys who place pins. But get upset? Nahhh.