Giffords - Who Is Responsible?
 

The tragic shooting of Congresswoman Giffords and senseless killings of a Federal judge and 5 others including a 9 year old girl in Arizona has me wondering why handguns are allowed to be owned by individuals.

Sarah Palin's website had actually put a picture of Gifford's district on it with crosshairs drawn in as a target for their Republican challenge to her. Gifford's Republican challenger, Jesse Kelly, had fundraisers of shooting an M-16 rifle. His website had him dressed in combat gear with an M-16.

Palin has expressed her condolences. Yeah, who believes that?

Kelly's spokesman says he sees no connection between the shooting of the Congresswoman and the militant fundraising. Yeah, who believes that?

The shooter was obvisously a deranged person but these ideas were planted somehow. Who is to blame? How did such a person get a gun?

What proof do you have either Palin or Kelly had any influence on this crime?
None
Shame on you.
His friend describes the shooter as a far left winger. The shooter lists both The Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf among his favorite books, hardly favorites of Palin and Kelly.
Now if the shooter had listed the United States Constitution as his favorite, you may have had a point.
Knock it off.
JJ

If you want to talk about gun laws and the belief that guns cause homocides and crime, take a look at Switzerland. And I have to second JimJoe, except for the Constitution part. It is too early to speculate about his motives or anything about the case yet IMO.

I was being sarcastic
 

I was being sarcastic about blaming Palin and Kelly if the shooter liked the Constitution. SOME on the left do not respect it and made ridiculous comments about it recently.
I am a strong supporter of the Constitution.
Sorry if my sarcasm was not clear.
JJ

Jared Loughner and perhaps one other person is responsible !!!

Your sarcasm and continual personal attacks aside, Jared Loughner is responsible.

The perpetrator wanted to start his own currency. among other things. It's like a line from All in the Family:

Mike: "Did you know that (x - number) of people were killed with handguns last year"

Archie: "Would it make you feel any better if there were stabbed?"

Why do we allow handguns? We just had an example of why. Because, here in New Hampshire, a few days ago, someone held off an intruder until the police showed up. The homeowner had a legal firearm and the perpetrator turned out to be someone involved with the most notoroius murder in New Hampshire in 20 years. Now said perp is behind bars.

I can guess as well as anyone else. This man was probably showing early Schizophrenia as that usually happens about this age. Does that excuse him...I certainly don't know.

Is a political party to blame here? I think absolutely not. This patriotic woman who I am admiring more and more as I hear more about her, was an avid proponent of the second amendment so she herself would not condemn the right to carry a gun.

She was doing what she believed in and it appears that her peers from both sides of the aisle like and respect her very much. Her husband is described as being "beside himself" right now. Of course he is. It is personal and tragic and terrible, especially to her family and the people who are close to her.The seconds and minutes are dragging by like years for them as she is unresponsive in her drug induced coma.

The world has changed and more sick people know more, and more quickly about where public figures are.

Sadly, now, much has to be changed about how freely our congress can move about the world.

It isn't new, that people serving in these capacities are targeted. We have a lot of assassinations in our history.

We just can't make this deed political when it isn't. Other than someone was incensed about one of her beliefs, perhaps.

Have not been as many political assassinations in US history as I thought.
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...an_politicians

Some of these assassinations seemed to occur at the politician's home while shooting through a window.

And there are many people with mental illnesses like schizophrenia who never do anything violent.

The 2010 political climate does seem to have contributed to this 22 year old's frame of mind and its sounds like he had the intent to take lives and planned this out. Sounds like premeditated murder to me.

I am saddened by the content of the first 3 posts regarding this tragic event. Did anyone of you think about the young 9 year old girl who was struck down by this nut job. You should all be ashamed of yourselfs...one of you wants to blame Palin, one wants proof and thinks he is a left wing nut and I am not sure about the Swiss post.

Now is not the time for finger pointing...this is a time for grief.

We cannot remain silent
 

We cannot remain silent when people make charges about our politicians without proof, and then when we respond with a simple statement demanding proof and providing our own proof that in fact the criminal was on the opposite side of politics, I should be ashamed?
You have to be kidding.
Of course there were many innocent victims of this terrible crime which further proves it was not politically motivated. This crime is more about our society's unwillingness to do something about mentally ill people before they commit serious crimes.
But I refuse allow the left to falsely accuse the right of being responsible without at least asking for proof, even if you are going to accuse me of being shameless for doing so. That is ridiculous.
JJ

I said this was a time for grief and not for finger pointing.....


You should be ashamed..... A 9 year old girl died.

Well, when Palin says it is time for her followers to "reload" and prints a map with crosshairs on a political district - it obviously is enough to cause a mentally unbalanced person to actually do it.

As for Switzerland requiring rifles in homes - that is in regard to their National Guard (well-regulated militia). Our Constitution has the 2nd Amendment for that purpose and not for everyone to own handguns. The drafters of the Constitution had no idea of how technology would advance, of course, and had no idea of a semi-automatic handgun with an extended magazine. Their weapon was a single-shot musket.

As for the light-hearted comment from Archie Bunker about stabbings vs shootings - how many political killings have been made with a knife? Last I heard was Julius Caesar. If the mentally deranged person in Tucson had a knife instead of a gun, I really doubt if 6 people would have been killed.

I will ask again..
 

I will ask again.. what proof do you have this shooting or any other crime was the result of Sarah Palin or any other politician.
None.
The criminal's political leanings were in fact left. That is a fact.
JJ

I was responding to an unproven serious charge
 

I was responding to an unproven serious allegation. This is not only the right thing to do, it is necessary in a free society.
You really think it is wrong to demand proof when a serious unproven charge is made?
You know you do.
JJ

This is a time for grief....a public servant following the 1st amendment of the Constitution that she just read on the floor of the House just days ago was gunned down....you should be ashamed.


A 9 year old girl died.....

This is a time for grief....a public servant following the 1st amendment of the Constitution that she just read on the floor of the House just days ago was gunned down....

The time for that will come.....

I agree that the time for that will come... so why are you not saying the same thing I am saying.. that there should not be any unproven allegations made against our politicians now?
Remember, the unproven allegation in part is that Sarah Palin is responsible for the murder of that 9 year old girl.
You should be outraged that any person would use this tragedy as an opportunity to take cheap shots and make unprove SERIOUS charges now or later.
I could cite NUMEROUS outrageous statements made by all kinds of persons on the left that are far more incendiary.. but I will not.
The criminal is responsible for his own actions, and we cannot use this tragedy as an excuse to make political gains.
JJ

no proof
 

There is no proof that this shooting had anything to do with Palin or Kelly. However,that does not excuse the stupidity and total lack of judgement that putting bullseyes on people and the just really dumb M16 stuff does.Whether we like it or not it sets a tone. Even if this nut wasn't affected,others will be.Politics is not war and references to battles,guns,bullseyes,targets,M16's do nothing but arouse the evil in some people. Unfortunately,in todays America there seems to be more people who only need the littlest push to act out their violent thoughts.

I really feel very strongly that now is not the time..... but I will agree that outrageous statements are made on both sides.

Now is not the time......a 9 year old girl, born on 9/11, died in this attack.

This should be a time of grief.

Here we go again..
 

What proof do you have that any politician including Sarah Palin putt a BULLSEYE ON PEOPLE?
None
You just made that up too.
Demo districts were targeted by the tea party to be voted out of office. I am not aware of any BULLSEYE being put on a PERSON.
PROVE it or apologize.
JJ

Cologal keeps trying to get people to use this period immediately following this senseless tragedy to remember the innocent victims. I understand and sympathize with her in her quest for this, but, humbly, I have to conclude that she is wrong.

It seems that it is instead a time for the radical left to use this tragedy in an attempt to move the political football of their beliefs further downfield. As one of their own, Emanuel Rahm, pointed out and advised his supporters;

"Never waste a good crisis"

It seems the lesson was not lost on Democrat supporters.

Amen

Ok, there've been a lot of responses so I'm gathering up my thoughts on some...

Taltarzac: You said the 2010 political limate contributed to this. I submit that the media sensation over the climate had more to do with it. In studying past election cycles, there have been events that make today's stuff look pale by comparison. What we have now that we didn't ahve then are a slew of 24/7 news channels looking for anything to sensationalize to get more viewers. Kind of like the old newspaper axiom: "If it bleeds, it leads".

Tbugs: "well-regulated militia" didn't have anything to do with the National guard back in the 1700s. The "militia" was every able-bodied person who could fight. "well-regulated" meant well-trained in that you knew how to load and operate a weapon and COULD hit the broad side of a barn with it.

As I stated in the other topic. This guy was a moonbat. He is now a mass murderer and should be treated as such.

I'm sorry - he is ALLEGEDLY a mass murderer, until the trial that, from all appearances, should convict him.

Firearms at political rallys never made sense!
 

I am very saddened by yesterday. Our First Ammendment freedom to congregate peacefully is now in danger. Who's going to object to the next gathering?

The first time I saw some moron carrying a gun to a Republican rally (on TV of course), I knew it wouldn't be long before one of the guns would be used it a hateful way. Didn't anyone think that if people were allowed to attend political rallys "armed" that someday, some nutjob wasn't going to go off? Just the slightest common sense should have told people that the "mob mentality" we witnessed in 2008 which continued right through to 2010 was going to appeal to the least stable in our society.

Just because you have the right to carry something doesn't mean that there isn't a "right time" and a "right place". The right to carry a gun is to be prepared for an armed militia, not to shoot your neighbors or politicians to you happen to disagree with. We don't need to sell assault rifles or multi-clip Glock 9's. We need stricter controls and longer waiting periods on who can buy handguns. This idiot in Arizona had a police record.

You want to hunt? Great! Go shoot Bambi... but eat her meat. She's not a trophy. Don't carry pistols like this is Wyatt Earp country and you live in the OK Corral. You really think you need carry a gun at a Bush rally? If so, you deserve to shoot each other, because you are just two steps away from being the paranoid schizophrenic that killed 6 people yesterday.

In my most humble opinion.

I think it is time to put our cards on the table.
A mentally ill man bought a gun legally and passed an FBI check. He murdered 6 people, and seriously injured 14 more.
How could this have been prevented?
He was mentally ill and many people apparently knew about it. He should have been hospitalized, simple as that. Apparently many people were aware of his condition and did nothing about it. That is the mistake that was made. We have mandatory reporting laws on child abuse. Maybe we should have the same reporting for mentally ill people, instead of privacy laws, so that the schools, the military, and other officials would have been required to report him to authorities so they could have had him evaluated and hospitalized.

for jimJoe crosshair map
 

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/08...an-gabrie.html

Here is the crooshair map with names

Look who else put a "bullseye" on Congresswoman Giffords. A leftist blogger who was enraged with Giffords for not voting for Nancy Pelosi for minority Speaker. We have a whole new conspiracy theory here now; don't you think? The shooter was a leftist himself, reports suggest, and this might make more sense if you're looking for a rational reason for an irrational act.

I'm not Wayne, but I know you are. So how about this?

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=249273

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/val...ed_shooter.php

we can talk theory all we want but Palins crosshairs and Jesse Kellys M16 nonsense is just not defensible. They were both stupid ideas. Stupid ideas are not limited to these two, however they do apply to this particular incident. They were both wrong. The crosshair chart is no longer on her page,I wonder why. Could it be she realized that a mistake was made.

You said BULLSEYES ON PEOPLE, not crosshairs on districts
 

Here is what you said:
There is no proof that this shooting had anything to do with Palin or Kelly. However,that does not excuse the stupidity and total lack of judgement that putting bullseyes on people and the just really dumb M16 stuff does.Whether we like it or not it sets a tone. Even if this nut wasn't affected,others will be.Politics is not war and references to battles,guns,bullseyes,targets,M16's do nothing but arouse the evil in some people. Unfortunately,in todays America there seems to be more people who only need the littlest push to act out their violent thoughts.

That map does not have BULLSEYES on PEOPLE. You said BULLEYES on PEOPLE.

I agree with you that it has cross hairs on CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS, not BULLEYES on PEOPLE.

PALINs people said they hired a professional to make the ad and he came up with the idea. The cross hairs are from a surveyor site which is what you use to identify the area of property you are interested in.. Google image it.
And you forgot to mention at the bottom of the ad that it says 3 have retired and 17 to go. It says lets take back the 20. It says nothing about killing people. Come on.. do you really believe she meant kill 20 people?

AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL...
there is no proof he ever even saw this ad. How can you even suggest she is responsible without proving that. His friends describe him as left wing. His favorite books including Mien kampht and the communist manifesto are clearly not sarah palin stuff.
Come on.. you know she had nothing to do with this shooting

It diverts attention from the real problem that a mentally ill man who had problems in school and maybe getting in the military because of his illness was not identified and hospitalized before he committed these terrible crimes.
Blaming Sarah Palin will do nothing to prevent crimes like this in the future and I think you know it.

The crosshairs are no longer on her page because she knew people would complain for leaving them up and btw.. the election is over.

The partisan need for finger pointing and playing the blame
 

game is first and foremost for some.

The facts will eventually speak regardless the political/media play of the coming days.

How about a little creative thinking on what really happened without the partisan saw being played or is that too much of a challenge? Or not in the play book?

btk

Liberals had better start reading their own past ads and posts before they accuse Palin in this case.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pali...trict-in-2010/

Ok it is always the radical left so I humbly now post this from our friends the Tea Party. People in glass houses should never throw stones.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_806462.html

I read your link and
 

I read your link and I do not get your point.
The Huffingtonpost does its usual great journalism by quoting an unidentified Republican senator who says nothing bad about the tea party.

My point is simply that a mentally ill person can take any word or statement whether it is inflammatory or not and twist it into some crusade. They frequently get ideas from the bible, or the constitution, or television.

Even when some person, whether politician or not, who says they support the tea party says something extreme that is no reflection on the tea party, democratic or republican parties, unless the party endorses it. I have never heard a tea party group endorse violence. They urge constitutional government and fiscal responsibility. I do not consider that to be extreme.
JJ

Jared Loughner is responsible for this terrible action !

I find it scary that someone would start a thread like this and that there would be discssion of any kind that this was the responsibility of anyone else but this sick man !

There has been political rhetoric for years....in NY city people handing out literature of Bush in a Nazi uniform and no violence. This man has a history...we must have disagreement...it is vital....certainly kept in reason but this was not the fault of any party, group, movement of any such thing and folks posting defenses of their group, or others making insinuations about other groups or parties is simply the wrong thing to do.

Jared Loughner is responsible for this act !!!!!!!!!

DEMOCRATS are absolute PROVEN hypocrites for all of their phoney outcry about Sarah Palin targeting Democrats.
Take a look at the map the Democrats put out in 2004!!
AND the DID use BULLSEYES!

What Hypocrites!!

The sound of apologies to Sarah Palin will be deafening!.. ya right

http://american-conservativevalues.c...s-eye-map.html

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2654012/posts

http://www.google.com/images?q=democ...w=1024&bih=475

During the 2008 presidential campaign, who said -

“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun, because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”?

He, like Sarah Palin, was speaking metaphorically. Anyway, the best article that I have read on this appears in the City Journal. Andrew Klavan writes -

http://www.city-journal.org/2011/eon0109ak.html

JimJoe.....In this case I feel it is totally inappropriate to blame either side for this specific act. However, as we see on this site the blame game started from the beginning. Had you read the link you would have found this.....


Some Tea Partiers have acknowledged as much in the wake of the tragedy. "These heinous crimes have no place in America, and they are especially grievous when committed against our elected officials," said Tea Party Express Chairwoman Amy Kremer in a statement. "Spirited debate is desirable in our country, but it only should be the clash of ideas."

But others are fighting back. "The hard left is going to try and silence the Tea Party movement by blaming us for this," Tea Party Nation founder Judson Phillips wrote. "The left is coming and will hit us hard on this. We need to push back harder with the simple truth. The shooter was a liberal lunatic. Emphasis on both words."


I agree this guy could be a mental case but how did he become a liberal? Is it because of his reading list? But that is only part of the picture....he also attempted to enlist in the Army.

You could say he is a liberal because...
 

Because the people said he was a left pot smoking liberal own best reading list includes the Communist Manifesto.
Where is the proof Sarah Palin or the tea party did anything to influence him?
JJ

Reading the Communist Manifesto doesn't make him a liberal, neither does smoking pot....

And please point out where I said anything about Sarah Palin in any of my posts........

You are clearly missing the point.

You are so mad about someone trying to pin the blame on Palin while the Tea Party is trying to pin the blame on the pot smoking left wing liberals.

How does this help?