Ohio Sends Koch Bros a Message
 

Ohio voters sent a strong message to the Koch Brothers, and their puppet stooge, governor Kasich by overturning an anti-union law. Issue 2 on the ballot would have restricted collective bargaining for public employees.

Next step for Ohions is to get rid of this governor, who is nothing more than a paid mouth piece for ultra-con Koch Bros.

The people have spoken !!!!!

MISSION ACCOMLISHED !!!!!!!!!!

Ohio voters rejected limits on collective bargaining of unionized state employees with 60% of the vote. The AFL-CIO is very pleased this morning.

I guess we can now ignore any Ohioan who complains about their high taxes. They've now given up that privilege. Maybe Ohioans don't know that they actually pay these people?

richielion - i don't think ohioans have given up anything...rather, i think they have insured the right to negotiate thru collective bargaining that the gov and his legislation would have eliminated.

Ohio has $66 Billion Dollars in public pension debt. Ohioans have that bill to pay, and now influenced by $30 Million Dollars of Union paid television advertising, they've overturned a provision to help them come to terms with it.

Hey njbchbum, it's their state and their pocketbooks. How soon before Ohio is begging the Federal Govt. for help and their problem becomes yours? You got enough problems with the public union debt in your own state. That's one reason I fled NJ and burned all bridges behind me.

This win was a singular win event for the Democrats in this election. In the same state of Ohio the voters voted in every district, liberal or conservative, to reject the mandate of ObamaCare. It's only symbolic, but it tells you more than the confusingly worded ballot on collective bargaining did in terms of voter mood in the state.

Issue 2 defeat hurts the taxpayer
 

The unions raised over 30 million dollars, set up 35 field offices and had 17,000 volunteers in order to defeat Issue 2. They won the battle but may have lost the war because killing Issue 2 will do nothing to revive the state economy and put Ohioans back to work

Public unions are dead weight to any state. Examples: 90% of Long Island Railroad Workers retire on disability, even those with desk jobs, adding $36,000 to their pensions, and costing taxpayers $300 million in the last 10 years.

82% of California troopers retire in their last year on disability and so many spike pensions with overtime in the last year it is considered to be a right.

Ohio and Wisconsin governors are in a fight with public unions with the latter claiming governors are trying to decimate their right to bargain but the issues are rich benefit packages that are drowning state budgets with no corresponding increase in productivity.

Termination for incompetence is nonexistent in New York State public unions and in Cincinnati police bargained to have their records expunged every four years making periodic misconduct essentially unaccountable.

Collective bargaining right have made governments virtually unmanageable. Promotions, reassignments layoffs are dictated by rigid rules without opportunity for managerial judgment As an example in 2010 Megan Sampson was voted teacher of the year in Wisconsin. Shortly thereafter she was let go because of the unions last in first out rule

Last year when a virus disabled two computers in a shared federal office the IT techs fixed onebut but refused to fix the second because it wasn't listed on the form

Public employees are precluded from sharing ideas with management because it affects direct dealing rules.

Members reading this post could recite similar stories. For those of you that believe defeat of Issue 2 was a big win you might want to confer with those union members and compare your salary and compensation to theirs. Keep in mind that most of those folks can retire after 20 years and some sooner if they elect disability. What this all leads to is that taxpayers realalistically can be on he hook for 2-3-perhaps 4 people who all performed the same exact job and are now retired with full benefits, disabiled with full benfits and working with retirement just around the corner. What financial affect do you believe it bears on taxpayers?

richielion - n.j. didn't go begging the feds for any help despite their pension debt, so ohio doesn't have to either. n.j.'s elected officials sat with all concerned parties re the pension and benefit debacle and deficit and came up with reform that all parties felt was what was needed and could be passed at this time to sustain future retirements. once the reform was passed, gov christie boasted about how HE had made the future retirement pkgs sustainable [though, todate, he has still failed to make his much reduced contribution]! and now the gov of ohio is forced to do the same - bargain and negotiate! had he just buckled down and done this from the beginning EVERYONE would have suffered far less aggrevation and voters would not have made him appear to have lost a battle.

you post that this was a singular win for democrats; in hind sight one could say that the other side of that coin was that the election of kasich was a singular win for republicans. either way, such statements are shortsighted in that there are public union members in both parties as there are private sector employees in both parties. this win was a win for the principle of collective bargaining - more a democratic principle and practice than a republican one, nonetheless. democrats call it collective bargaining while republicans call it negotiation...either way...this win insures that all parties will provide input to the two sides responsible for reaching a resolution.

the vote to uphold the right to collective bargaining and the vote to to reject the requirement that every citizen have health insurance seems to tell me that ohioans are all for protecting the rights of the individual.

rubicon - your subject line states, 'Issue 2 defeat hurts the taxpayer'. so i have to ask...how many public workers are not taxpayers? they cannot all be tenants not paying property taxes. and those who are tenants are paying their taxes on all other items for which the state collects same - do they not? so often it seems that public workers are discounted as taxpayers.

Apparently you only read the subject line. Public union wages and compensation alone are out of whack. Now add to that all the feather bedding, conviving, malingering etc being perpetrated by union employees because they can and they can because of the "so called bargaining rights" which by the way are not legal rights;albeit contractaul rights which ought to be put aside and have the states start all over again. Because if the states do not the debt created by these taxpaying union members is going to drive us all broke. Do the math its all unsustainable

I am an equal opportunity complainer. Fat cat corporate leaders upset me as much as public union leaders both of which have feasted on the flesh of taxpayers long enough.

Respectively written

Rubicon

I live in the great state of Ohio. My employees are members of a state union. It is sad to see the propaganda that is used by the union leaders to brainwash the members. They are mislead in such a way as to keep them from seeing the forest for the trees. The union mentality denies the fact that you cannot get blood from a rock. The good governor was attempting to save the most jobs possible. He has been demonized by the leaders of the unions in attempt to save their phoney bologna jobs. Sad to say, lay-offs have already started...gotta save money somehow.

The public employee's work has no relation to money being earned, so they have no personal stake in anything. They don't produce the revenue that pays their salaries, as in the private sector.

They're like children on an allowance. They never see any correlation between their pay and any shortage of state revenue. They want theirs and that's that.

WOW RICHIELION, you put my thoughts EXACTLY into words! After some recent lay-offs, an employee approached me questioning me about what the logic is in the lay-offs. I explained about how the budget works... Her reponse was exactly as I quote here-"Who makes a stupid budget like that?" I was speechless!
I might add, their union leaders are the biggest children! They truly don't get it, they think it is a big game. I have heard them imply that the money is there, just being withheld from them until the game is played out. What a dangerous game. It is sad that these people are leading others, and that others are willing enough to follow blindly

Public "employees" have no right to negotiate money paid to them from taxpayers. There should be no public servant unions. Period.

Yep, Teamsters negotiate with UPS...two different entities. Government union negotiates with the government...basically with themselves?!?

rubicon - i did read your entire post. and i found that it is unfortunate that you are not an equal opportunity credit giver so that you could recognize the good works done by many of the public workers who do not feather bed, connive and/or malinger - but who get up every day and go to work to serve all of the residents of their state, county or municipality.

public employees in n.j. do have a legal right to representation and collective bargaining, given to them in the legislation thru the new jersey employer-employee relations act.

and our gov has assured all n.j. public workers that his recent pension and benefits reform legislation will ensure retirement pensions and benefits for future retirees for years to come. this might be because pension fund members will be paying an increased contribution for both their pension and health benefits pkgs; and because the state is finally going to start paying their share of pension funding - which it had not done for 17 of 10 years. perhaps other govt leaders can take a page from his book.

was glad to read that you can be equally upset by corporate leaders, too.

Due to the public union, I am unable to award any of my employees merit raises...

Yes,Yes they negotiate with themselves and rob the taxpayers. Government employees should receive the pensions that social security people get. They are not better then SS people so they should receive the average SS payout. No more!!!!

and while the age to retire and collect from SS continues to rise, government union contracts shackle the taxpayer to payout the retired worker after their 30years...
How is their "pot" protected and our SS "pot" is drained to other unrelated projects? By "confiscating" my money and putting it into SS, hasn't the Federal government by default entered into a contract with me?

but richielion - what does produce the revenue that pays their salaries? take a look at any state budget....taxes, fines, penalties, grants, licenses, fees, etc! property taxes from the private sector are but a small portion of any state's revenue sources! so it is not fair, nor is it accurate to say that the private sector pays the salaries of public employees. a state treasurer takes a pile of money that came from all revenue sources and funds salary and benefit accounts as appropriated by the legislature.

public sector employees see the correlation between their salary and state revenue every time there is an increase in property tax, gas tax, boating and motor vehicle and fishing license fees, sales tax, tobacco tax, inspection fees and realty transfer fees, yada, yada, yada.

the public and private sector employee each pay the same taxes and increases...the private sector resents that the public sector gets some of that money back as salary and health insurance covg and they only get a homestead rebate for property tax relief.

Having worked closely with budgets in both private and public sectors, I know a few things to be true.
Private sector rarely fails to meet budget. It is constantly monitored and adjustments are made quickly and efficiently... a stitch in time saves nine.
Public sector is much more relaxed...que sera sera! When the need to cut back is recognized, it has gone on far too long. However, the reaction is most often, to look to the state-the source of funding-to fix the problem.
Go back and read RichieLion's post again.
Why and how does the United States Postal Service continue to lose money and yet remain open?

katxpajamas -
not all employees/union members are so willing...to even join, much less follow. perhaps it is sad in a right to work state; but n.j. is not one of those states.

in n.j., if your work site/unit is 'represented', the employee is required to either pay the full dues requirement and thus have the right to vote on a contract. or they can pay a partial dues and not have the right to vote. the second example is based on the fact that they are an employee who will benefit from the negotiations of the representatives, and must, therfore, contribute to that effort of the representative. the partial dues payment is not intended to pay for any political activity of the representative.

and union membership and representation is further complicated by employees who are considered 'confidential' employees..employees whose responsibilities could be compromised by union membership. those employees pay no union dues but are bound by the limite of the collective bargaining agreement. they do not have the right to negotiate even for themselves.

what is sad in n.j. is that if there is a union where you work - you must join.

Federal Times
9/7/2009
"The U.S. Postal Service, struggling with a massive deficit caused by plummeting mail volume, spends more than a million dollars each week to pay thousands of employees to sit in empty rooms and do nothing.

It's a practice called "standby time," and it has existed for years — but postal employees say it was rarely used until this year. Now, postal officials say, the agency is averaging about 45,000 hours of standby time every week — the equivalent of having 1,125 full-time employees sitting idle, at a cost of more than $50 million per year.

Mail volume is down 12.6 percent compared with last year, and many postal supervisors simply don't have enough work to keep all employees busy. But a thicket of union rules prevents managers from laying off excess employees; a recent agreement with the unions, in fact, temporarily prevents the Postal Service from even reassigning them to other facilities that could use them.

So they sit — some for a few hours, others for entire shifts. Postal union officials estimate some 15,000 employees have spent time on standby this year.

They spend their days holed up in rooms — conference rooms, break rooms, occasionally 12-foot-by-8-foot storage closets — that the Postal Service dubs "resource rooms." Postal employees use more colorful names, like "holding pens" and "blue rooms.".............
http://www.federaltimes.com/article/.../DEPARTMENTS02

a government union is not the government.

in n.j. state employees are represented by national unions such as the cwa or afscme or pba or fop or ipte.

representatives of each union collectively bargain/negotiate a contract for their members with representatives of the governor's office...two different entities [union and govt]. legislators are not involved in contract negotiations.

loveithere - govt employees do not negotiate with themselves! govt emps are represented by national unions such as the communications workers of america, the american federation of state, county, municipal workers, etc! reps of those unions bargain with govt reps to derive contracts.

why should a govt emp receive the same thing that a social security recipient receives? the ss recipient might never have been employed; they could be blind, disabled or collecting survivor benefits.

why is the govt emp not better than the ss recipient?

Curious to know where you get your facts?
BUT At the state institution that I work for, the negotiations are between the HR department and the union representatives (also employees of our institution)...these people are all bascially co-workers! The negotiate over the use of the taxpayer's money...the same taxpayer who is not sitting in on these negotiations and therefore without a voice.

I cannot believe that someone would have the gaul to ask such a question. Government hacks are not better then SS people. Most Americans are SS recipients. Government employees should never receive more then the people they are working for, which is private sector people who pay the servants to work for them. Government employees live in a Alice in Wonderland fantasy world where the taxpayers are working for the government employees. Government employees are bankrupting America. They are the new ELITE!!!!

What if the SS worker was employed? Why should he/she work from age 21-65/70 (45-50 years!) before being able to collect? While the government employee is 30 and out and then collects immediately?

Exactly.:bigbow::bigbow::bigbow:

Thanks! Glad to see there are others who haven't been drinking the Kool-aid.:wave:

katzpajamas -
well, my limited knowledge of budgeting sees that the private sector meets its budget because it can quickly and efficiently raise the price for their product. but in the private sector, there will come a point where the public will no longer pay the price for the product and the private employer can reduce the quality/quantity of their product; or it can adjust quickly and efficiently and reduce their operating costs, usually through staff reductions. in the case of the latter, the govt will then pick up the increased cost to support the unemployed worker...and the private sector corporate leader will still be employed.

well, the govt never anticipated the need to support those unemployed private sector workers, so where will the money to do that come from. the govt will have to increase their revenue sources by raising taxes, fees, fines, penalties, etc. since the govt has no product to sell. the government parties who choose to raise their "prices" risk not being the government come the next election!

if you have been following politics of late, can you point to anyone in the public sector who is relaxed about the economy?

Government Unions negotiate with the government for money that the government confiscates from the citizenry in the form of taxes and fees.

Government Unions donate a portion of that money, from workers dues and political PAC's, to political campaigns. Government Unions advocate for those politicians who are down with the struggle.

The government negotiates with the Government Unions again. The circle is complete.

In a nut shell I can see the attitude of the public "servants". Public servants do not contribute to the economy, they can only take from the economy. They live off of private sector money like parasites. They are wealth distribution galore.

Exactly!

Another problem in this fantasy world is that unionized government employees refuse to face the fact that they work for a "NON-PROFIT" organization that produces no revenue much less a profit margin, as private sector union employees do for Ford, Caterpillar, etc.

"Milton Friedman argued that government agencies resemble economic "black holes" where increased 'inputs' lead to declining 'outputs. 'Economist Thomas DiLorenzo has argued that:

'The enormous power of government-employee unions effectively transfers the power to tax from voters to the unions. Because government-employee unions can so easily force elected officials to raise taxes to meet their "demands," it is they, not the voters, who control the rate of taxation within a political jurisdiction. They are the beneficiaries of a particular form of taxation without representation (not that taxation with representation is much better). This is why some states have laws prohibiting strikes by government-employee unions. (The unions often strike anyway.)

Politicians are caught in a political bind by government-employee unions: if they cave in to their wage demands and raise taxes to finance them, then they increase the chances of being kicked out of office themselves in the next election. The "solution" to this dilemma has been to offer government-employee unions moderate wage increases but spectacular pension promises. This allows politicians to pander to the unions but defer the costs to the future, long after the panderers are retired from politics."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-sector_trade_union

Adjusting price isn't that easy. Out price your product and no one buys. There are still ethical companies who won't stoop to price gouging.
Unemployment? Unemployment insurance premiums are paid for by the employer. 99% of the time, their employees will never collect. (present state of the economy due to bailouts and other ridiculous WH BS not included)
Bailouts? These should have never happened in the first place. Why did the government bail out these big companies in the first place. Without bailouts, the CEO's would have had to make some major adjustments in order to keep their business afloat. But if Uncle Sam is willing to pay the price to guarantee their bonus, hey whatever. These guys didn't get to the top without some brains on how to get ahead. As for the housing bubble, that was created by government! Dems wanted everyone to have a home and banks were pressured into giving loans to extremely risky clients! It was all set up to happen this way so government can step in and save the day...aka gain more power.
Who in the public sector is relaxed? Define relaxed...need to know because I know a few private sector companies who are doing just fine. They are smart enough to keep their finger on the pulse of their company and make necessary minor adjustments, thus avoiding drastic major ones, do more with less...
1-http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/bu...my/24econ.html
2-http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...011/employers/
3-http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=ups

loveithere -
it did not take any gaul to ask the question. i just wanted to know what would possess you to make such a statement.

why do you demean the govt employee by calling them a hack; especially when you have never met them and don't know them? you appear to be of the belief that the ss recipient is better than the government employee you refer to as a servant. that is quite a judgement! so i have to ask - who are you to judge?

most americans do, or at least will, collect ss. and thru the largess of elected officials, many of those americans who collect never contributed a cent to ss funds. they are draining the fund of your money and mine! lets put a stop to that! if an american is blind or disabled or a spouse who never contributed, let's cut their funding!


americans want and demand programs and services; and they want them provided by their government. so government has to design, develop and provide the programs and services the citizens want and demand. those citizens are the folks living in fantasy land because they have no real idea of the cost to provide what they want and demand. but they go on wanting and demanding and the government goes on providing.

government employees are not bankrupting america....americans wanting and demanding that their government take care of them is bankrupting america.

so lets stop wanting and demanding and government won't have to provide it.

I know government union employees, I work with them. after 30 years in the private sector, the mentality of these government union folks was a SHOCK to my system!
The lack of initiative, the lack of sense of urgency, the lack of going above and beyond just because it is the right thing to do, lack of pride, lack of the dignity that comes with taking it to the next level, lack of reimbursement based on performance, etc,etc,etc....how sad.

And how about the way government union employees treat the "customer"--taxpayer....who gets out of work at 5pm or later, but the post office closes at 4:00 and there are no stamp machines in the lobby?

Or how about the last mail pickup for the day being at 10:00 a.m. at all the mailboxes in the middle of a huge office park....when the office workers are producing orders, correspondence, and checks for 7 more hours that need to go out in today's mail???

HARDLY!!! public sector employees DO contribute to the economy every time they pay taxes as well as purchase goods and services from the private sector! and with the amount of private sector unemployment which is due to private sector corporate greed, the economy is fortunate to have public sector employees spending money!


the public sector employee creed:

“We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, with so little, for so long, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing.”

Nice creed!...but saying it doesn't make it fact. I hear similar comments daily from people who have never had to step up to the plate and get a hit out in the real world.

You're kidding, right?

my info comes from n.j. state law...the new jersey employer-employee relations act...and the public employee relations committee.

in n.j. the employees of all state depts. agencies and commissions are governed by contracts which are negotiated between the individual unions and the team of negotiators under the auspice of the office of the gov.

no h.r. dept would ever be permitted to negotiate a contract in this state! h.r. depts work with union shop stewards to insure that all parties follow contract provisions.

how many unions and contracts exist in your state institution?