[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I'm not a fan of unions, in general. I've been a member of three of them, my spouse has been a union guy. At the phone company we had our own union - not a local of some conglomerate like the Teamsters, but our own private employees' union. And then the conglomerate took over and our benefits went down the tube - while the local officers raked in their extra pay and the stewards got a day off every week with pay to attend union meetings that existed to deny employees of the few rights they managed to save.

At the municipality, I was hired as a civil servant, having passed the test and been 10th on the list of a couple hundred candidates. Turned out they only hired me because the chick they had to fire, refused to work full time and the union demanded that it be a full time position. I didn't know that when they hired me. Five months and 3 weeks in - the week before the end of the mandatory probation period - they fired me for "no cause." They were able to get the union to create a part-time position doing what they originally insisted had to be a full time job, and they hired the other chick back. I had to threaten them with an attorney (which was a bluff since I couldn't afford one to literally fight city hall), just to get my union dues back. They refused to protect my position, refused to represent me, and refused to refund the money I paid every paycheck to pay for that protection and representation.

The last one was at a supermarket. They required that we pay extra in dues, to cover medical benefits. The benefits were an old fashioned 80/20 plan where you have to submit your expenses after paying the bill, and they refund you. I already had full coverage of comprehensive health care from my husband's employment, so I tried to opt out, to save some money. They told me that wasn't allowed, I was enrolled and paying for it whether I wanted it or not. Then they gave me a copy of the union contract - which was a 20 page xerox copy of someone's hand-typed document, that was full of typos and missing sentences and even an entire page missing. One of the things the union negotiated for was a first aid kit on every floor of the store. They actually gave something up in exchange for something OSHA requires anyway.

I walked out of that place after trying for a month. I wasn't allowed to NOT be in the union - even though our state forbade mandatory union membership at employment. I would've had to hire a labor lawyer - and again - I couldn't afford it.

That said - my personal experience aside, I am not anti-union. I'm anti abuse by unions. I believe strongly that unions are necessary to create a healthy, safe, and strong work environment. But once they've done that they need to back up and let the system work. When they keep pushing for more and making ridiculous demands of employers just to prove that they're the muscle in the relationship, that's when the unions fail their members.

[Caymus]

Originally Posted by tuccillo

There is no coherence to anything you say. Feel free, however, to rant on.

Same thing over and over and over. Maybe a sign of dementia.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

I'm not a fan of unions, in general. I've been a member of three of them, my spouse has been a union guy. At the phone company we had our own union - not a local of some conglomerate like the Teamsters, but our own private employees' union. And then the conglomerate took over and our benefits went down the tube - while the local officers raked in their extra pay and the stewards got a day off every week with pay to attend union meetings that existed to deny employees of the few rights they managed to save.

At the municipality, I was hired as a civil servant, having passed the test and been 10th on the list of a couple hundred candidates. Turned out they only hired me because the chick they had to fire, refused to work full time and the union demanded that it be a full time position. I didn't know that when they hired me. Five months and 3 weeks in - the week before the end of the mandatory probation period - they fired me for "no cause." They were able to get the union to create a part-time position doing what they originally insisted had to be a full time job, and they hired the other chick back. I had to threaten them with an attorney (which was a bluff since I couldn't afford one to literally fight city hall), just to get my union dues back. They refused to protect my position, refused to represent me, and refused to refund the money I paid every paycheck to pay for that protection and representation.

The last one was at a supermarket. They required that we pay extra in dues, to cover medical benefits. The benefits were an old fashioned 80/20 plan where you have to submit your expenses after paying the bill, and they refund you. I already had full coverage of comprehensive health care from my husband's employment, so I tried to opt out, to save some money. They told me that wasn't allowed, I was enrolled and paying for it whether I wanted it or not. Then they gave me a copy of the union contract - which was a 20 page xerox copy of someone's hand-typed document, that was full of typos and missing sentences and even an entire page missing. One of the things the union negotiated for was a first aid kit on every floor of the store. They actually gave something up in exchange for something OSHA requires anyway.

I walked out of that place after trying for a month. I wasn't allowed to NOT be in the union - even though our state forbade mandatory union membership at employment. I would've had to hire a labor lawyer - and again - I couldn't afford it.

That said - my personal experience aside, I am not anti-union. I'm anti abuse by unions. I believe strongly that unions are necessary to create a healthy, safe, and strong work environment. But once they've done that they need to back up and let the system work. When they keep pushing for more and making ridiculous demands of employers just to prove that they're the muscle in the relationship, that's when the unions fail their members.

There are many stories out there that mirror your experience. At my brother’s first job out of high school, union employment, he was advised to slowdown by coworkers because they don’t have to work at that pace. He quit shortly after that, couldn’t stand the sluggish atmosphere.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

Oh? Like what unionized employees did for the Automobile manufactures? Or what AFCSME does for productive government? Or what labor unions have done for construction costs in the Northeast and elsewhere? Or perhaps consider how little manufacturing remains in the USA, because Labor Unions put most of the manufacturing companies out of business. Or the granddaddy of all, Teachers Unions that have undermined and destroyed the educational system in the US.

Unions are the problem, not the solution. It's been proven throughout history, unions eventually work to the detriment of every business and every worker.

Only if you are part of management that believes that management can treat and pay employees any way managements want, or you still live in the past.

The company i work at (sportsguy) currently has many unions, i would say at least 10, closer to 30 most likely, i have the information in the headcount file, but not interested in accuracy as the point is made, not a real problem, and certainly hasn't bankrupted the company nor made the company unsuccessful. .

The hospital CoachK has worked at for over 10 years, and over 20 from the start, has at least 7 unions, and is doing fine. The for profit hospital across the street threw out the unions and has the worst working and pay conditions that they all want to work at CoachK's hospital. And regions of the for pay hospital system across the country are insolvent, due to managements' financial mismanagement, read greed and total management control of workers for their enrichment

The problem with public unions is the problem with democracy during the good times: identity politics where each group is promised special treatment for votes, and larger groups get more attention. . all for the power of a government position..

Every successful company is a three legged stool which must be satisfied
customers, employees, owners, any one of these which fails always blames the other two as its never their fault

. so I don't live in the past any more, just looking forward to not working after June 15th, my last day as a W2 employee.

[ThirdOfFive]

That said - my personal experience aside, I am not anti-union. I'm anti abuse by unions. I believe strongly that unions are necessary to create a healthy, safe, and strong work environment. But once they've done that they need to back up and let the system work. When they keep pushing for more and making ridiculous demands of employers just to prove that they're the muscle in the relationship, that's when the unions fail their members.[/QUOTE]

With you on that one.

I worked on Taconite plant construction in Northern MN just out of high school and summers while in college. Carpenter tender/#2 shovel operator. Hot, hard work but I was a young buck and loved it. Union (of course). People up there take unions VERY seriously, and two things you never did: 1) work as a scab, or 2) cross a picket line of another union. One company new to the area tried to put scabs to work: when said scabs got back to the parking lot after their shift a lot of their cars had been keyed, windows smashed, etc. Of course, nobody saw anything. It seems over-the-top until one realizes that not too many years before, before widespread union representation, a lot of the guys up there were ruthlessly overworked as well as underpaid, and some of the older guys remembered those days.

Nobody in my time there was overpaid even then, and you had to work hard (or at least look like it) or you could be laid off right quick, but at least the men working there could support their families on what they earned, thanks to the unions.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive

That said - my personal experience aside, I am not anti-union. I'm anti abuse by unions. I believe strongly that unions are necessary to create a healthy, safe, and strong work environment. But once they've done that they need to back up and let the system work. When they keep pushing for more and making ridiculous demands of employers just to prove that they're the muscle in the relationship, that's when the unions fail their members.

With you on that one.

I worked on Taconite plant construction in Northern MN just out of high school and summers while in college. Carpenter tender/#2 shovel operator. Hot, hard work but I was a young buck and loved it. Union (of course). People up there take unions VERY seriously, and two things you never did: 1) work as a scab, or 2) cross a picket line of another union. One company new to the area tried to put scabs to work: when said scabs got back to the parking lot after their shift a lot of their cars had been keyed, windows smashed, etc. Of course, nobody saw anything. It seems over-the-top until one realizes that not too many years before, before widespread union representation, a lot of the guys up there were ruthlessly overworked as well as underpaid, and some of the older guys remembered those days.

Nobody in my time there was overpaid even then, and you had to work hard (or at least look like it) or you could be laid off right quick, but at least the men working there could support their families on what they earned, thanks to the unions.[/QUOTE]


(post by jimjamuser begins)I agree with the concept of a GOOD union experience, whether it is at a restaurant chain or a manufacturing plant. Even something that is OVERALL for the good of society will have SOME downsides - because we all know that nothing is perfect. So, naysayers to unions can and will find some problems and overreaching by unions, but overall they protect workers from arbitrary MANAGEMENT / OWNER abuse. Before unions became a force in American industry, workers were treated (mistreated) like indentured servants.

Owners of large companies want top-down management thinking that is the best system for company growth and quality. But is it REALLY? Somewhere around 1950 an American wrote a book called "circles of management". The idea was that any company would be MORE successful if the management LISTENED to the lowest line WORKERS in any organization in any industry (EITHER automobile manufacturing or a RESTAURANT chain). Bottom line ......US CEOs ignored this book's concepts because they wanted to be considered INDISPENSIBLE , and thus get the big bucks like Jack Welsh at G.E. Well, the CEO's in JAPAN read the same book and by getting WORKER input the Japanese AUTOMOBILE industry began to be competitive with Detroit about 1965.

The TRICK that US CEOs used to RUN AWAY from unions was to go to the US south, then Mexico, and eventually to China. What was that end result? We gave China a new middle class (and associated global POWER). And the US middle class was weakened and the US itself became weakened.
........The bottom line is that I NEVER believed that UNIONS were BAD for America............and I wrote this to describe in a short outline form.......Why I believe it.

[Babubhat]

NYC restaurants see change in tipping habits

[fdpaq0580]

Originally Posted by Babubhat

NYC restaurants see change in tipping habits

Somewhere in the article a restaurant owner refered to anyone not tipping 20% or more as penny pinching grinches. Guess not tossing your hard earned money around like confetti, sprinkling copious amounts upon all whom you encounter, makes you a grinch. And the idea of penny pinching is very out of date when a penny won't buy anything. Maybe dollar pinching would make more sense in todays world. Penny pinching grinch, my great aunt Fanny! I say any restaurant owner who doesn't pay his employees a living wage so they need those whom they were hired to serve supplement 20% of their income is as mean as Ebenezer Scrooge. No one should ever be expected to tip. A gratuity is a "thank you" for going Above and Beyond expectations. It should not be a part of the bill.
I hate tipping. I think it is demeaning to the professionals who perform the many services where tips have become commonplace. Do away with tipping and let people be properly paid and be proud professionals, rather than charity cases living on other peoples pity.

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by fdpaq0580

Somewhere in the article a restaurant owner refered to anyone not tipping 20% or more as penny pinching grinches. Guess not tossing your hard earned money around like confetti, sprinkling copious amounts upon all whom you encounter, makes you a grinch. And the idea of penny pinching is very out of date when a penny won't buy anything. Maybe dollar pinching would make more sense in todays world. Penny pinching grinch, my great aunt Fanny! I say any restaurant owner who doesn't pay his employees a living wage so they need those whom they were hired to serve supplement 20% of their income is as mean as Ebenezer Scrooge. No one should ever be expected to tip. A gratuity is a "thank you" for going Above and Beyond expectations. It should not be a part of the bill.
I hate tipping. I think it is demeaning to the professionals who perform the many services where tips have become commonplace. Do away with tipping and let people be properly paid and be proud professionals, rather than charity cases living on other peoples pity.

I agree, but the restaurant industry is too greedy to abolish tipping.

[Babubhat]

Menu should have an out the door price. Includes tax and tips.

Panera hands you a bagel from bin and a 20 percent tip button shows up. Offensive

[Keefelane66]

Originally Posted by Babubhat

NYC restaurants see change in tipping habits

Just because a restaurant inflates the prices of the menu doesn’t mean I should tip more. We can purchase a steak at any supermarket choice or prime. We are quite satisfied with Outback, Texas Roadhouse along with Longhorn, all meals under $30. Don’t tell me by putting a price of one steak $60 it’s better

[fdpaq0580]

Originally Posted by Keefelane66

Just because a restaurant inflates the prices of the menu doesn’t mean I should tip more. We can purchase a steak at any supermarket choice or prime. We are quite satisfied with Outback, Texas Roadhouse along with Longhorn, all meals under $30. Don’t tell me by putting a price of one steak $60 it’s better

Also, have you noticed how often your "server" isn't the one who actually serves you your meal, or brings or refills your drink, etc. Depending on where you are, your "server" may only take your order. Any number of others may be bring in silverware, water, taking/bringing your drinks, soup or salad, and more. ???

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by fdpaq0580

Also, have you noticed how often your "server" isn't the one who actually serves you your meal, or brings or refills your drink, etc. Depending on where you are, your "server" may only take your order. Any number of others may be bring in silverware, water, taking/bringing your drinks, soup or salad, and more. ???

In many cases in the Villages area, "your server" is not the only recipient of your tip. A portion of it is going to the person who brings you the drinks, the food, sets and clears your table, tops off your water glass, etc. etc.

If you feel that any individual person who attended to you deserves a tip, pay them in cash on your way out. Don't expect that your actual waiter will get it all.

[Michael 61]

I’d rather have everything included in one bill, like Europe - and abolish the tip. Now that tips are pooled in most places, I feel reluctant to over-tip for exceptional service, knowing that my server will not receive my tip exclusively. Also, I’ve begun to think about a flat-rate tip, and not based on the total bill (takes same effort to serve and deliver a hamburger as a steak), and base the tip on how many times did the server come to my table (tip more for a multi-course meal, and not as much for a once-and-done delivery, with no further contact with your server).

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Michael 61

I’d rather have everything included in one bill, like Europe - and abolish the tip. Now that tips are pooled in most places, I feel reluctant to over-tip for exceptional service, knowing that my server will not receive my tip exclusively. Also, I’ve begun to think about a flat-rate tip, and not based on the total bill (takes same effort to serve and deliver a hamburger as a steak), and base the tip on how many times did the server come to my table (tip more for a multi-course meal, and not as much for a once-and-done delivery, with no further contact with your server).

If you pay the tip in cash to whoever you feel deserves the tip, that person is responsible for declaring that income on their yearly tax return but - they also don't have to share that tip with anyone else. Granted, most cash-tip totals never make it into the tax return, but that's not your responsibility as the tipper.

When I worked a restaurant in Florida many years ago, we were paid $2.75/hour (give or take). It was /assumed/ that our tips combined with our wage equaled minimum wage - and we were taxed accordingly out of our paycheck. That was whether we were paid a tip in cash or credit card. But sometimes our tips didn't combine with our wages to equal minimum wage, and we overpaid tax, and earned less than minimum even before taxes were deducted.

Federal law has changed since then - but Florida law has not. Florida has no laws regarding how employers can/must treat wages of their employees. They don't even have a department of labor.