When one looks back in history all the elements of GM were separate companies...Chevrolet...Buick...etc.

When they smarten up they will go into Chapter 11...get much of the debt forgiven....get out of dealer contracts...out with the union...and more.

Under the reorganization...if they are smart they will go back to smaller companies as in the beginning. That means there will be several multibillion dollar companies without the obligations and overhead of a proven inefficient mega company.

So when the media presents the subject in their typical sensational manner...the end of General Motors...they want it to sound bad....they present all the negative possibilities...and FAIL to point out the upside.

The big fat executive overburden conglomerate will disappear. Several independent businesses will fall out.

It is just too bad this was not forced to happen last year. All that has been accomplished since then is the time lost as well as several billion dollars of tax payer money. Did any half intelligent thing human being believe for one minute there would be any other outcome.

Chapter 11 = an enema for a sick constipated company....

One door closes and others will open....it will happen with this too.
Now if we could just get the politicians and the media to tell it like it is instead of pumping the sky is falling routine.

What do you think?
I don't care whose fault it is (that is the non productive backward look), only that it gets fixed...that would be the forward look that results in an improvement.

BTK

Originally Posted by Guest

**snip**When they smarten up they will go into Chapter 11...get much of the debt forgiven....get out of dealer contracts...out with the union...and more.BTK

Out of the warranties too?
They've burned many of their customers with lower quality products and non-caring dealers, who will buy the cars?

Originally Posted by KayakerNC

Out of the warranties too?
They've burned many of their customers with lower quality products and non-caring dealers, who will buy the cars?

That's one of the values of Chapter 11.

If they go C-11, they have to prepare a recovery plan for court ratification. That plan has to show how GM would still be able to compete, and if they burn the existing warranties, that would have such a negative marketing effect that the court could not ignore it. So, to survive, those things which affect sales have to be positive or the plan gets axed.

From an AutoBlog column by John Neff:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/05/g...-may-disagree/
"Of course, car shoppers across the U.S. are in a bit of a crunch right now too, so saving GM won't do much if they don't find salvation, as well."

Originally Posted by Guest

When one looks back in history all the elements of GM were separate companies...Chevrolet...Buick...etc.

When they smarten up they will go into Chapter 11...get much of the debt forgiven....get out of dealer contracts...out with the union...and more.

Under the reorganization...if they are smart they will go back to smaller companies as in the beginning. That means there will be several multibillion dollar companies without the obligations and overhead of a proven inefficient mega company.

So when the media presents the subject in their typical sensational manner...the end of General Motors...they want it to sound bad....they present all the negative possibilities...and FAIL to point out the upside.

The big fat executive overburden conglomerate will disappear. Several independent businesses will fall out.

It is just too bad this was not forced to happen last year. All that has been accomplished since then is the time lost as well as several billion dollars of tax payer money. Did any half intelligent thing human being believe for one minute there would be any other outcome.

Chapter 11 = an enema for a sick constipated company....

One door closes and others will open....it will happen with this too.
Now if we could just get the politicians and the media to tell it like it is instead of pumping the sky is falling routine.

What do you think?
I don't care whose fault it is (that is the non productive backward look), only that it gets fixed...that would be the forward look that results in an improvement.

BTK

BTK:
I argue almost daily with many of my friends that work and worked for GM. Management , Dealers and Union are all to blame. My company sells steel to GM and to competitors. I have many horror stories.
I believe that C11 is their best chance to survive as a company. I know that everyone involved will have to make a sacrifice including company I work for.
No I am not a GM basher , I was and am an owner of GM and Ford stock.
Good luck to everyone.

I agree, C-11 is GM's best alternative. The Management policies and Labor contracts have brought GM to this position. Reorg. is their only option to bring things back in line with today's economy and auto market. We (taxpayers) can not afford to keep giving them $, it is like throwing it down a rat hole.

AIG should also consider C-11. It is incredible how much we have given them to stay afloat.

Thank god none of you geniuses have any ability to influence the outcome of our economic future, (other than you all probably drive foreign cars). Threads like this are why no one pays any attention to the political forum here. (Do I hear an echooooo)

Well, here is one "No One" who pays attention and thanks the Dear Lord that there are still some good people with old fashioned common sense out there!

BTK. Bucco, Steve and others, keep up the good work!

Karen

-and yes, we drive 2 foreign cars! When GM and others build better quality cars, we will drive them.

Originally Posted by cglenhar

Thank god none of you geniuses have any ability to influence the outcome of our economic future, (other than you all probably drive foreign cars). Threads like this are why no one pays any attention to the political forum here. (Do I hear an echooooo)

Well, my only comment to you would be that if you do not enjoy or pay attention to this area, then do not visit it !!!

And your view of the posters here and their intelligence is duly noted. I, for one, apologize for not being up to your level of knowledge !!

I didn't post in this particular thread but those who did shared what they thought and I respect that !

I agree that Chapter 11 is the only reasonable path for GM. It is certainly NOT reasonable to think the the taxpayers should continue to fund their negative cash flow until such time as sales volume picks up to thier inflated break-even-point.

But I strongly believe that a Chapter 11 will quickly turn to a Chapter 7--liquidation. I see no "give" whatsoever from the UAW or the senior debt holders. The dealers aren't far behind--they all agree that there should be fewer dealers, but it should be the guy down the street that shutters the windows, not them. The senior debt holders will take a lesser "haircut" in liquidation than they would in a Chapter 11 reorganization, so they're not at all motivated to negotiate in good faith on a creditor's committee. The UAW seems perfectly willing to play chicken until the bus is already airborne off the cliff. They still beleive that the country "owes them" for the wonderful job they did converting the plants from making cars to tanks and planes in WWII. Who remembers that besides them?

Someone will buy the brand names and maybe a factory or two out of the liquidation, so in time there may still be cars called "Chevrolet" or "Buick" or "Chrysler" or "Dodge" being made somewhere (probably overseas) by some non-union workers. The cities and towns where all those domestic auto plants are located--they will all be in a heap of trouble trying to maintain their schools, city maintenance, public safety, any service or employee that was getting paid from the tax receipts paid by the auto companies or the workers. Lots and lots more "smokestack towns" which will suddenly have no smoke coming from the stacks.

The unintended consequence is that the failure of GM will certainly cause the failure of both Chrysler and Ford, as well. Chrysler may actually run out of cash before GM. But Ford looks like it could make a go of it--but not without the 3-4 key suppliers that will be shuttered as the result of the GM/Chrysler bankruptcies. Even in the best of circumstances it would be months before replacement suppliers could be lined up by Ford. But the fact that much of the Ford-owned tooling located in supplier's plants would have to get the blessing of a bankruptcy court in order for it to be moved would add months to the process of Ford starting up again. While Ford is in the best shape of the American car makers, they certainly don't have enough cash to last out the time it would take to re-establish the supply chain. And that avoids the discussion that the replacement suppliers themselves may be in the process of bankruptcy or liquidation.

Then there's the dealers, of course. If all three American companies go belly up, how long do you think it will take for every domestic car dealer in America to turn out the lights? I'd give it a matter of weeks, not even months. If the banks won't lend to creditworthy borrowers, what do you think the chances are that they'd lend to a GM, Chrysler or Ford dealer? Floor-planning loans for new car inventory? What are those cars worth? Regular old working capital loans? Not a chance for a dealer who has no source of product to sell. Warranties on U.S.-made cars? Hah! If a few dealers actually survived, where would they get the parts?

Like I said, bankruptcy seems to be the only alternative for these companies. But the unintended consequences will be a severe blow to our economy. I'd go so far as to say the worst so far.

Who to blame? It starts with everyone who goes home with a paycheck from GM, Chrysler or Ford every Friday--both management as well as the UAW. I don't think one needs to spend a lot of time trying to add to that list--just the management and union are enough. They've run the bus off the cliff. All we're awaiting now is the sound of the big crash.

Originally Posted by cglenhar

Thank god none of you geniuses have any ability to influence the outcome of our economic future, (other than you all probably drive foreign cars). Threads like this are why no one pays any attention to the political forum here. (Do I hear an echooooo)

Well, since I have never been accused of being a genius, I guess this comment was meant for others......

Yep, got two Ford-made foreign cars - less plastic and more reliability.

Gave up trying to influence anyone. Those who know what should be done and are in a position to actually do something are doing it already. Those who are doing dumb stuff are usually too arrogant to listen to us grey-beards anyway!

Below is a link to an interesting article on General Motors.

http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprim...=2009&month=02

Wagoner is on his way out.
A good start?
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/29/r...hrysler-fritz/

Originally Posted by KayakerNC

Wagoner is on his way out.
A good start?
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/29/r...hrysler-fritz/

As you know KAYAKER, I am not shy about giving my opinion however I am not sure how I feel about this...

I was against the bail out attempt in the first place and felt they should have simply gone to bankruptcy..but we did give them "low interest loans" and frankly they may still be heading for bankruptcy court !

What part will the Govt play in putting together the new board of directors ? What will the Govt do relative to the unions ? I am reading that now the Govt is the warranty back up for the cars also. Was the intiial bailout simply to get some control before bankruptcy ?

A lot to think about and then will get back to you I am sure you will be waiting with great anticipation for that !

Originally Posted by Bucco

As you know KAYAKER, I am not shy about giving my opinion however I am not sure how I feel about this...

I was against the bail out attempt in the first place and felt they should have simply gone to bankruptcy..but we did give them "low interest loans" and frankly they may still be heading for bankruptcy court !

What part will the Govt play in putting together the new board of directors ? What will the Govt do relative to the unions ? I am reading that now the Govt is the warranty back up for the cars also. Was the intiial bailout simply to get some control before bankruptcy ?

A lot to think about and then will get back to you I am sure you will be waiting with great anticipation for that !

Bucco,
I always enjoy your conclusions (may not always agree), due to the research and effort you put into the process.
IMHO the Govt should have some representation of the Board, since it is our (taxpayer) money and we should have a voice.
I just hope that they don't decide that increasing the tariff by a few hundred percent, is the way to protect the auto industry.