I had a long conversation with my brother and his wife, who just returned from a two-week vacation in Turkey, visiting their daughter, son-in-law and grand daughters. Their daughter and her husband are in Turkey, serving as Christian missionaries after almost fifteen years serving in Mexico City.

With all the upheaval in Syria and Egypt these days, I thought it might be interesting to pass along some "American observations" of another major Middle Easter country. Turkey is an American ally and a member of NATO, so it's much more advanced politically than many other countries in the region.

Here are some of the observations made by my brother and sister-in-law. They're pretty much the responses to my questions when we had a long talk on the phone this morning. The notes are in no particular order.

• Istanbul is a huge city. With a population of 13.4 million people, it's about 50% more populated than New York City. It is split into the European side and the Asian side by the Bosporus straight, a two-mile wide waterway connecting the Black Sea with the Aagean Sea (Mediteranean) separating Europe from Asia.

• Turkey's government is a strictly secular parliamentary representative democratic republic. Having said that, the military has considerable power as regards both the governance of the country and its judicial system.

• Although the military is important in Turkey's governance, they are virtually invisible in day-to-day life in the city. The same is true of any police presence.

• Although neither the army of the police have a particularly strong presence, the city seems to be extremely safe. My neice and her husband reported that the city is safe and that they and their teen-aged, blonde girls feel completely safe traveling around the city.

• Istanbul is a very clean city, much moreso than Mexico City, where my neice and her family were posted for almost fifteen years. And much, much safer they report. At least a part of their reason for being re-posted to the Middle East was the rapidly deteriorating safety of the population in Mexico.

• Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, the first president of Turkey is as revered in Turkey even today as any dictator might be in an active dictatorship. Atatürk was an Ottoman and Turkish army officer, revolutionary statesman, writer, and the first President of Turkey, from shortly after WWI until his death in 1938. He is credited with being the founder of the Republic of Turkey. He led wide-ranging reforms in social, cultural, and economical aspects, establishing the new Republic's backbone of legislative, judicial, and economic structures. Atatürk literally dragged Turkey from an uneducated, backward, Islamic country into its current state as s modern, secular, economically independent country.

• Islamic law is strictly separated from secular law, and restricted to matters of religion. Although Turkey is almost completely Muslim, this separation of laws is widely accepted, except in the more conservative, rural parts of the country.

• Atatürk installed a new civil code, a major step of giving freedom to women. Earlier Atatürk championed the education of girls which was fundamental to his program for the unification of education. Before Ataturk's administration, Turkey had no organized system of education, and had no common spoken or written language, not even an alphabet! In only a few years Atatürk forced the development of both a system of schools and even a written language!

• The Turkish government and system of laws was the result of Atatürk choosing the best from many of the European countries. He viewed the country as the "Switzerland of the Middle East" and reportedly, Turks exhibit that pride and commitment in their everyday life even now.

• Along those lines, I asked what Turkey's position was regarding the Syrian civil war, just over Turkey's long border with Syria. Reportedly, there is virtually no chance that the Turks will enter the conflict in Syria, even though they would have the overpowering military capability to quickly resolve the issues there. It would be totally inconsistent with their self-perceived role as a peaceful, almost apolitical nation.

• The population of Turkey is 97% Muslim. While the five times daily call for prayers can't be ignored in the city, it is reported to be as modern and diverse as many large American cities. Men are generally well-dressed in western clothing. Women dress as they wish. Some wear full Burka dress; others are seen wearing common western clothing.

• The Turks have their "differences" with the Greeks, particularly along their border. The relations between the Greeks and Turkey have been marked by alternating periods of mutual hostility and reconciliation ever since Greece won its independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1821. They have fought four wars against one another, and the current state of their relations can probably best be described as "simmering".

Basically, what was described to me was a safe, modern, western city, politically stable and economically independent. And a terrific place to vacation, with good climate and more ancient history than can be captured in a short vacation. If my brother had any complaints it was that Istanbul was even hillier than San Francisco but without the cable cars, somewhat limiting its "walkability" for tourists. Then there's the Grand Bazaar, where one could get lost for days shopping and haggling with the Turkish merchants.

Originally Posted by Villages Kahuna

I had a long conversation with my brother and his wife, who just returned from a two-week vacation in Turkey, visiting their daughter, son-in-law and grand daughters. Their daughter and her husband are in Turkey, serving as Christian missionaries after almost fifteen years serving in Mexico City.

With all the upheaval in Syria and Egypt these days, I thought it might be interesting to pass along some "American observations" of another major Middle Easter country. Turkey is an American ally and a member of NATO, so it's much more advanced politically than many other countries in the region.

Here are some of the observations made by my brother and sister-in-law. They're pretty much the responses to my questions when we had a long talk on the phone this morning. The notes are in no particular order.

• Istanbul is a huge city. With a population of 13.4 million people, it's about 50% more populated than New York City. It is split into the European side and the Asian side by the Bosporus straight, a two-mile wide waterway connecting the Black Sea with the Aagean Sea (Mediteranean) separating Europe from Asia.

• Turkey's government is a strictly secular parliamentary representative democratic republic. Having said that, the military has considerable power as regards both the governance of the country and its judicial system.

• Although the military is important in Turkey's governance, they are virtually invisible in day-to-day life in the city. The same is true of any police presence.

• Although neither the army of the police have a particularly strong presence, the city seems to be extremely safe. My neice and her husband reported that the city is safe and that they and their teen-aged, blonde girls feel completely safe traveling around the city.

• Istanbul is a very clean city, much moreso than Mexico City, where my neice and her family were posted for almost fifteen years. And much, much safer they report. At least a part of their reason for being re-posted to the Middle East was the rapidly deteriorating safety of the population in Mexico.

• Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, the first president of Turkey is as revered in Turkey even today as any dictator might be in an active dictatorship. Atatürk was an Ottoman and Turkish army officer, revolutionary statesman, writer, and the first President of Turkey, from shortly after WWI until his death in 1938. He is credited with being the founder of the Republic of Turkey. He led wide-ranging reforms in social, cultural, and economical aspects, establishing the new Republic's backbone of legislative, judicial, and economic structures. Atatürk literally dragged Turkey from an uneducated, backward, Islamic country into its current state as s modern, secular, economically independent country.

• Islamic law is strictly separated from secular law, and restricted to matters of religion. Although Turkey is almost completely Muslim, this separation of laws is widely accepted, except in the more conservative, rural parts of the country.

• Atatürk installed a new civil code, a major step of giving freedom to women. Earlier Atatürk championed the education of girls which was fundamental to his program for the unification of education.

• The Turkish government and system of laws was the result of Atatürk choosing the best from many of the European countries. He viewed the country as the "Switzerland of the Middle East" and reportedly, Turks exhibit that pride and commitment in their everyday life.

• Along those lines, I asked what Turkey's position was regarding the Syrian civil war, just over Turkey's long border with Syria. Reportedly, there is virtually no chance that the Turks will enter the conflict in Syria. It would be totally inconsistent with their self-perceived role as a peaceful, almost apolitical nation.

• The population of Turkey is 97% Muslim. While the five times daily call for prayers can't be ignored in the city, it is reported to be as modern and diverse as many large American cities. Men are generally well-dressed in western clothing. Women dress as they wish. Some wear full Burka dress; others are seen wearing common western clothing.

• The Turks have their "differences" with the Greeks, particularly along their border. The relations between the Greeks and Turkey have been marked by alternating periods of mutual hostility and reconciliation ever since Greece won its independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1821. They have fought four wars against one another, and the current state of their relations can probably best be described as "simmering".

Basically, what was described to me was a safe, modern, western city, politically stable and economically independent. And a terrific place to vacation, with good climate and more ancient history than can be captured in a short vacation. If my brother had any complaints it was that Istanbul was even hillier than San Francisco but without the cable cars, somewhat limiting its "walkability" for tourists. Then there's the Grand Bazaar, where one could get lost for days shopping and haggling with the Turkish merchants.

Thank you for a great thread ! If you dont mind, in no special order also just a few comments....

What I have read in the past the Presidents name is GUL, but I could be incorrect on my memory.

I also have read that he is very interested in human rights and that might override the pacifism at some point as Turkey is being overrun by refugees.

Also, on Saturday there was some discussion on Turkey actually getting involved and they have sent that message to Syria.

In any case, enjoyed reading the post, especially the part about Islamic law being kept separate from secular...that I did not know.

Thanks for sharing !

Originally Posted by Villages Kahuna

I had a long conversation with my brother and his wife, who just returned from a two-week vacation in Turkey, visiting their daughter, son-in-law and grand daughters. Their daughter and her husband are in Turkey, serving as Christian missionaries after almost fifteen years serving in Mexico City.

With all the upheaval in Syria and Egypt these days, I thought it might be interesting to pass along some "American observations" of another major Middle Easter country. Turkey is an American ally and a member of NATO, so it's much more advanced politically than many other countries in the region.

Here are some of the observations made by my brother and sister-in-law. They're pretty much the responses to my questions when we had a long talk on the phone this morning. The notes are in no particular order.

• Istanbul is a huge city. With a population of 13.4 million people, it's about 50% more populated than New York City. It is split into the European side and the Asian side by the Bosporus straight, a two-mile wide waterway connecting the Black Sea with the Aagean Sea (Mediteranean) separating Europe from Asia.

• Turkey's government is a strictly secular parliamentary representative democratic republic. Having said that, the military has considerable power as regards both the governance of the country and its judicial system.

• Although the military is important in Turkey's governance, they are virtually invisible in day-to-day life in the city. The same is true of any police presence.

• Although neither the army of the police have a particularly strong presence, the city seems to be extremely safe. My neice and her husband reported that the city is safe and that they and their teen-aged, blonde girls feel completely safe traveling around the city.

• Istanbul is a very clean city, much moreso than Mexico City, where my neice and her family were posted for almost fifteen years. And much, much safer they report. At least a part of their reason for being re-posted to the Middle East was the rapidly deteriorating safety of the population in Mexico.

• Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, the first president of Turkey is as revered in Turkey even today as any dictator might be in an active dictatorship. Atatürk was an Ottoman and Turkish army officer, revolutionary statesman, writer, and the first President of Turkey, from shortly after WWI until his death in 1938. He is credited with being the founder of the Republic of Turkey. He led wide-ranging reforms in social, cultural, and economical aspects, establishing the new Republic's backbone of legislative, judicial, and economic structures. Atatürk literally dragged Turkey from an uneducated, backward, Islamic country into its current state as s modern, secular, economically independent country.

• Islamic law is strictly separated from secular law, and restricted to matters of religion. Although Turkey is almost completely Muslim, this separation of laws is widely accepted, except in the more conservative, rural parts of the country.

• Atatürk installed a new civil code, a major step of giving freedom to women. Earlier Atatürk championed the education of girls which was fundamental to his program for the unification of education. Before Ataturk's administration, Turkey had no organized system of education, and had no common spoken or written language, not even an alphabet! In only a few years Atatürk forced the development of both a system of schools and even a written language!

• The Turkish government and system of laws was the result of Atatürk choosing the best from many of the European countries. He viewed the country as the "Switzerland of the Middle East" and reportedly, Turks exhibit that pride and commitment in their everyday life even now.

• Along those lines, I asked what Turkey's position was regarding the Syrian civil war, just over Turkey's long border with Syria. Reportedly, there is virtually no chance that the Turks will enter the conflict in Syria, even though they would have the overpowering military capability to quickly resolve the issues there. It would be totally inconsistent with their self-perceived role as a peaceful, almost apolitical nation.

• The population of Turkey is 97% Muslim. While the five times daily call for prayers can't be ignored in the city, it is reported to be as modern and diverse as many large American cities. Men are generally well-dressed in western clothing. Women dress as they wish. Some wear full Burka dress; others are seen wearing common western clothing.

• The Turks have their "differences" with the Greeks, particularly along their border. The relations between the Greeks and Turkey have been marked by alternating periods of mutual hostility and reconciliation ever since Greece won its independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1821. They have fought four wars against one another, and the current state of their relations can probably best be described as "simmering".

Basically, what was described to me was a safe, modern, western city, politically stable and economically independent. And a terrific place to vacation, with good climate and more ancient history than can be captured in a short vacation. If my brother had any complaints it was that Istanbul was even hillier than San Francisco but without the cable cars, somewhat limiting its "walkability" for tourists. Then there's the Grand Bazaar, where one could get lost for days shopping and haggling with the Turkish merchants.

Obviously you enjoy posting on TOTV. You spend a lot of time and share a lot of knowledge with the rest of us. This was a another very good post. You took the time to rather comprehensively detail the objective observations of some folks who seem to be in the position to compare the positives and negatives of places we may only know about from soundbites and travel brochures. Understanding leads to tolerance and respect for others. Thanks for contributing.

Just for information...This is just a report and confirmation not made on any of it...

"Syrian air defences “shot down” the Turkish jet fighter that went missing while on patrol near the border between the two countries on Friday, according to local television reports. "

"Reports in Turkey initially stated that Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan claimed that Syria had apologised for shooting down the plane.

"Syria immediately offered a very serious apology for the incident and admitted it was a mistake", Haberturk daily newspaper quoted Mr Erdogan as saying onboard a plane on the way to Turkey from Brazil.

However, Mr Erdogan later told a news conference that he could not confirm reports that Syria had shot it down and had apologised.

He said he had no word on the fate of the pilot and navigator on board.

"The chief of general staff has made the necessary statement about the missing plane. I am not saying it was brought down at the point it fell. It is not possible to say this without knowing the exact facts,"

Syria 'shoots down Turkish fighter jet' - Telegraph

Originally Posted by Bucco

Just for information...This is just a report and confirmation not made on any of it...

"Syrian air defences “shot down” the Turkish jet fighter that went missing while on patrol near the border between the two countries on Friday, according to local television reports. "

"Reports in Turkey initially stated that Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan claimed that Syria had apologised for shooting down the plane.

"Syria immediately offered a very serious apology for the incident and admitted it was a mistake", Haberturk daily newspaper quoted Mr Erdogan as saying onboard a plane on the way to Turkey from Brazil.

However, Mr Erdogan later told a news conference that he could not confirm reports that Syria had shot it down and had apologised.

He said he had no word on the fate of the pilot and navigator on board.

"The chief of general staff has made the necessary statement about the missing plane. I am not saying it was brought down at the point it fell. It is not possible to say this without knowing the exact facts,"

Syria 'shoots down Turkish fighter jet' - Telegraph

Let's see what happens. I don't think the Turks will be pacifist on this shoot down, although from my point-of-view the Turkish F-4 was well within Syrian air space. Why?

Having said they won't be pacifist, neither do I think they'll start a big land war with Syria. If they did, it would be long and bloody, but Turkey has by far the larger and better equipped military. It would be interesting to see how the Russians would react. And the Chinese.

I don't think we'll have to wait too long.