[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

I'm glad to see at least one person got it right. A person's soul is not something that can be passed back 'n' forth. When it departs, that's it, it's final.

Don't forget, the boy's sister died and she didn't get a second chance.

To come up with a story where God sends a person's soul back to the body makes a mockery of religion. It's as though God was indecisive or made a mistake.

I read the book "30 Minutes In Heaven." Was that not the same?

I had a playboy/adventurer friend while a Philosophy Student at the University of Nevada, Reno who had been stabbed six times (if I am remembering the story correctly) near the heart area around 1980. He was pronounced dead but they managed to revive him. He was having nothing of religion at least in front of me and other Philosophy Students. But, I would say that he came back. I believe it has to do with how much you think God controls the universe? Does he control the past, present and future? Kind of hard to argue any kind of moral responsibility if there is no choice really and God had determined everything beforehand.

I will wait and see the movie and may get to the book too. Maybe, it will get me back to reading more serious philosophy.

[Shimpy]

[QUOTE=KeepingItReal;866532..... The Bible ...... gives a full account of what happens when we take our last breath here and the soul departs our mortal body. Once the soul has left the body there will be no return for we will have a new body not made of flesh. Until this happens we are still here in body and in spirit.[/QUOTE]

Wishful thinking. The biggest instinct both we and animals have is survival. We would do anything to live forever and man cannot accept once he dies that it is final.

[Golfingnut]

An interesting read for what happens at death is Seat of the Soul. Nice to see a discussion of both views.

Lou

[Barefoot]

Originally Posted by pooh

Snipped ...... but in the end, what all believed and lived by was be kind, loving, honest and treat others as you want them to treat you. There is so much more to believing than just believing.

Well said Pooh.

[Monkei]

Originally Posted by Shimpy

Wishful thinking. The biggest instinct both we and animals have is survival. We would do anything to live forever and man cannot accept once he dies that it is final.

I somewhat agree. It is a comfort to those who believe, I sometimes am jealous of those who can simply use blind faith.

I believe also that when the lights are turned out they are indeed OUT.

[kittygilchrist]

Originally Posted by Monkei

I somewhat agree. It is a comfort to those who believe, I sometimes am jealous of those who can simply use blind faith.

I believe also that when the lights are turned out they are indeed OUT.

Maybe this should be a p.m...the moment before I first believed, I thought, "I should be logical, but I can't know with my brain if you're there or not, Jesus, so I'm coming to you with all that I am."
That was the first, as well as the last moment of blind faith. The rest has been certainty that Jesus is indeed real, alive, available, and loves me more than I love myself.

No opinion of the film.

[KeepingItReal]

[quote=KeepingItReal;866532..... The Bible ...... gives a full account of what happens when we take our last breath here and the soul departs our mortal body. Once the soul has left the body there will be no return for we will have a new body not made of flesh. Until this happens we are still here in body and in spirit.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Shimpy

Wishful thinking. The biggest instinct both we and animals have is survival. We would do anything to live forever and man cannot accept once he dies that it is final.

Not at all wishful thinking, we all know that it is appointed unto all of us once to die, we must die, and we will die. We know when we die our carnal bodies here will go back to the dust from whence they came but our soul will depart this earthly body. The only final part is that when we die our soul's destiny is sealed whether it be heaven or hell but we can have salvation if we desire it. Salvation is a free gift of God paid for by the blood of Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Luke 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

[Golfingnut]

I see blind faith as giving up, not giving in. If god exists and made us in his image, why do some never question it and those like me that feel foolish if I do not question. Why was I plagued with an inquisitive mind even as a child. Did god give me this personality, then a threat to burn for eternity because I use it the way it was given to me. I often return to read sermon on the mount by the profit Jesus Christ to keep my bearings, but the Bible (king James) is filled with childish fairy tales.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

I see blind faith as giving up, not giving in. If god exists and made us in his image, why do some never question it and those like me that feel foolish if I do not question. Why was I plagued with an inquisitive mind even as a child. Did god give me this personality, then a threat to burn for eternity because I use it the way it was given to me. I often return to read sermon on the mount by the profit Jesus Christ to keep my bearings, but the Bible (king James) is filled with childish fairy tales.

You are absolutely correct. Many people around the world turn to faith because it is a tradition, the way of life handed down to them and part of the way they live, their holidays and celebrations and all of their traditions are linked to it. Bright people should and do challenge and come up with their own answers. Not only in Christianity, but Judism and Budhism and Islam and Taoism and any faith one can think of. If God is than questions and investigations are not going to demolish him. or her. And if he is not, then one comes then to that conclusion.


I find comfort in Tradition, as many do. Here is one of my favorite characters in one of my favorite musicals. Hope you enjoy.


tevye tradition youtube - Bing Videos

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

You are absolutely correct. Many people around the world turn to faith because it is a tradition, the way of life handed down to them and part of the way they live, their holidays and celebrations and all of their traditions are linked to it. Bright people should and do challenge and come up with their own answers. Not only in Christianity, but Judism and Budhism and Islam and Taoism and any faith one can think of. If God is than questions and investigations are not going to demolish him. or her. And if he is not, then one comes then to that conclusion.


I find comfort in Tradition, as many do. Here is one of my favorite characters in one of my favorite musicals. Hope you enjoy.


tevye tradition youtube - Bing Videos

You picked one of my top 5 all time favorite movies.

I get caught up because I find the bible hard to believe if not impossible. Yet, the red letter portions of the New Testament call to me. I Love Jesus, but find the bible confusing and silly. I wish I did fall into Christian or Atheist. Being Agnostic is a bourdon I face constantly. I don't wish to find myself on my death bed still fighting with this issue.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

You picked one of my top 5 all time favorite movies.

I get caught up because I find the bible hard to believe if not impossible. Yet, the red letter portions of the New Testament call to me. I Love Jesus, but find the bible confusing and silly. I wish I did fall into Christian or Atheist. Being Agnostic is a bourdon I face constantly. I don't wish to find myself on my death bed still fighting with this issue.

You may want to look into this resource. Philosophy of Religion I got it in CD from the Lady Lake Public Library and listened to it during trips back-and-forth from the dog park. It can be a little dull at points.

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

You may want to look into this resource. Philosophy of Religion I got it in CD from the Lady Lake Public Library and listened to it during trips back-and-forth from the dog park. It can be a little dull at points.

36 Lectures most of them are my actual questions. Thank you very much.

[SantaClaus]

Seems a book or movie or tv show brings up this topic every couple of years, but Jesus clearly explicated the case. Jesus told of two men who died, a good man who went to heaven and a selfish man who went to hell. The good man, seeing the suffering in hell begged to be able to return to his living relatives so that he could warn them to do everything to avoid hell. He was denied. No, they have the Scriptures (aka Moses and the Prophets) let them believe the word of God, for even if they hear the testimony of a man raised from the dead, they will not believe.

We don't need a new, fallible, prophet to come and tell us that heaven is real, we have a ancient word from an infallible God who tells us it is. We want to believe the boy because his story comes without "strings" (law, judgment, reliance on grace, etc).

It's also worth noting that as Jesus shared this parable, he was sharing to people living under the law whose hope of salvation was that though they tried to keep the law they constantly failed, at least in their spirit, and were clinging to the goodness of God that he would provide a substitute for them as he had for Isaac atop the pyre. How much surer our hope now that the substitute has come, that the Word has been revealed in full?

Here is the actual parable, I paraphrased it above hoping folks who are generally adverse to reading scripture might get the gist of the story:

The Rich Man and Lazarus

Luke 16:19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

[kittygilchrist]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

I see blind faith as giving up, not giving in. If god exists and made us in his image, why do some never question it and those like me that feel foolish if I do not question. Why was I plagued with an inquisitive mind even as a child. Did god give me this personality, then a threat to burn for eternity because I use it the way it was given to me. I often return to read sermon on the mount by the profit Jesus Christ to keep my bearings, but the Bible (king James) is filled with childish fairy tales.

Lou, you have made my day!
Thank you for stepping up and saying "I don't know"...letting the unknown be unknown and putting it out there takes more courage than most people have, who run to the comfort of proclaiming certainty about something which they cannot possibly know, such as "There is no God."

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by Hacker1

I did not see the boy on TV, but I did read the book, and just today saw the movie. All I can say is that your comments seem to be based on a lot of assumptions. For one, no, the father was not all too eager to believe it... he took a lot of convincing, wrestling with it for a long time. I very strongly advise you to see the movie -- see all of it, and withhold judgement until the end of the movie. I think you will be surprised.

Being that you read the book and saw the movie, will you please tell me why God first took the boy's soul up to heaven and then sent it back?