[jrref]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

My next door neighbor is a snowbird and she once asked me to oversee the installation of a new compressor that was under a parts only warranty. It took two guys from Munn's about 8 hours to install a new compressor in her condenser unit. The labor charge was $900.

Seems cheap at approximately $100/hr for 2 guys, but OK.

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by jrref

Seems cheap at approximately $100/hr for 2 guys, but OK.

I agree that it seemed cheap to me too. But that is what they charged.

[ithos]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

My next door neighbor is a snowbird and she once asked me to oversee the installation of a new compressor that was under a parts only warranty. It took two guys from Munn's about 8 hours to install a new compressor in her condenser unit. The labor charge was $900.

That must have been for a seasoned tech and a helper. Not a bad price. Every case is different so doesn't hurt to price out both options.

[kilowatt]

21 years and still going

[dewilson58]

Originally Posted by kilowatt

21 years and still going

Here in TV??

[Craig Vernon]

Since it seems we are neighbors now. : ) We are both in the same spot 13 years original Carrier unit still working when I left and only one neighbor replaced so far that I spoke with. Whoever said Carrier is cheapest unit builder could've installed is completely wrong. I have worked on heating and ac equipment for years but Ohio is a different animal. Following post.

[jrref]

Originally Posted by Craig Vernon

Since it seems we are neighbors now. : ) We are both in the same spot 13 years original Carrier unit still working when I left and only one neighbor replaced so far that I spoke with. Whoever said Carrier is cheapest unit builder could've installed is completely wrong. I have worked on heating and ac equipment for years but Ohio is a different animal. Following post.

What I think was said is the builder installed the basic single stage Carrier system. You are correct. Although its basic, it's a very good system.

I'm not sure when this started but in the new builds, if you do your own build vs a spec home, you have the option of a single stage, multi-stage or variable speed inverter system. Of course at different price points. I have some friends who moved to Middleton and built and all opted for the Variable speed inverter system.

[ithos]

Originally Posted by Craig Vernon

Since it seems we are neighbors now. : ) We are both in the same spot 13 years original Carrier unit still working when I left and only one neighbor replaced so far that I spoke with. Whoever said Carrier is cheapest unit builder could've installed is completely wrong. I have worked on heating and ac equipment for years but Ohio is a different animal. Following post.

Since R410A is being phased out to save the world, are you familiar enough to make recommendations to a homeowner whose HVAC needs to be replaced. Try and get another 410A system if they can find one?

And what modifications will be needed to make the transition to the next generationof refrigerants? I understand they are mildly flammable. Will the linesets have to be replaced?

This is what I found:

Lineset Is In Good Condition
No kinks, corrosion, or wear. Old or damaged copper tubing can leak with mildly flammable refrigerants like R-32 or R-454B.

Proper Flushing or Replacement of Oil and Residue
R-410A uses POE oil, while R-454B and R-32 may use different blends. The line must be thoroughly flushed with approved cleaning agents to remove any old oil or contaminants. Some manufacturers require triple evacuation and filter drier installation.

Manufacturer Approval
Some OEMs (Carrier, Lennox, Trane, etc.) may allow reuse of R-410A linesets with specific procedures. Always follow the manufacturer’s installation guide.

[jrref]

Originally Posted by ithos

Since R410A is being phased out to save the world, are you familiar enough to make recommendations to a homeowner whose HVAC needs to be replaced. Try and get another 410A system if they can find one?

And what modifications will be needed to make the transition to the next generationof refrigerants? I understand they are mildly flammable. Will the linesets have to be replaced?

This is what I found:

Lineset Is In Good Condition
No kinks, corrosion, or wear. Old or damaged copper tubing can leak with mildly flammable refrigerants like R-32 or R-454B.

Proper Flushing or Replacement of Oil and Residue
R-410A uses POE oil, while R-454B and R-32 may use different blends. The line must be thoroughly flushed with approved cleaning agents to remove any old oil or contaminants. Some manufacturers require triple evacuation and filter drier installation.

Manufacturer Approval
Some OEMs (Carrier, Lennox, Trane, etc.) may allow reuse of R-410A linesets with specific procedures. Always follow the manufacturer’s installation guide.

So, R-454B is a blend of R-32 and R-1234yf just as R410A is a blend of R-32 and R-125. Both R-454B, R-32 and R410A are mildly flamable. What mildly flamable means is if there is a leak and you hold a flame at the leak it will ignite but when the flame is removed the ignition will stop. So, unless you are holding a match around your HVAC equipment that's leaking badly there is nothing to worry about. And if there is a leak it's not going to blow your house up because there is not enough freon in your HVAC to do that. R-32 has been used overseas for over a decade so it's what they call "battle hardened". R-454B has been extensively tested so no one expects any surprises.

As far as getting a old unit that used R410A, I don't think anyone is allowed to sell that after January 1, 2025 so it's probably not an option. Although the newer R-454B and R-32 systems are about 5% more expensive than the R410A systems they are slightly more efficient so the added expense may be a wash when you consider the energy savings.

I just purchased a new Carrier Infinity system that uses R-454B and they are replacing the line set. From what I understand, that's not an option. Given copper doesn't last forever I would think replacing the lineset is something you want to do otherwise you might have a leak down the line with reusing the old line set.

There is a lot of misinformation out there on the new freon used in the new HVAC equipment creating a lot of fear so, it's best to do more research on the subject to get the facts not believe the media.

At the end of the day freon has been changed for decades over and over so this time is no different and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it.

[OBRight]

We got 16 years out of ours and replaced it last fall.

[ithos]

Originally Posted by OBRight

We got 16 years out of ours and replaced it last fall.

I am just curious. Were these failures a bad compressor or a leak/rusty evaporator?

[ithos]

Originally Posted by jrref

So, R-454B is a blend of R-32 and R-1234yf just as R410A is a blend of R-32 and R-125. Both R-454B, R-32 and R410A are mildly flamable. What mildly flamable means is if there is a leak and you hold a flame at the leak it will ignite but when the flame is removed the ignition will stop. So, unless you are holding a match around your HVAC equipment that's leaking badly there is nothing to worry about. And if there is a leak it's not going to blow your house up because there is not enough freon in your HVAC to do that. R-32 has been used overseas for over a decade so it's what they call "battle hardened". R-454B has been extensively tested so no one expects any surprises.

As far as getting a old unit that used R410A, I don't think anyone is allowed to sell that after January 1, 2025 so it's probably not an option. Although the newer R-454B and R-32 systems are about 5% more expensive than the R410A systems they are slightly more efficient so the added expense may be a wash when you consider the energy savings.

I just purchased a new Carrier Infinity system that uses R-454B and they are replacing the line set. From what I understand, that's not an option. Given copper doesn't last forever I would think replacing the lineset is something you want to do otherwise you might have a leak down the line with reusing the old line set.

There is a lot of misinformation out there on the new freon used in the new HVAC equipment creating a lot of fear so, it's best to do more research on the subject to get the facts not believe the media.

At the end of the day freon has been changed for decades over and over so this time is no different and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it.

Thank you for the response. Very good information. I forgot or never knew that R410A was regarded as flammable. But I researched it and it is considered "non-flammable" where R454b is considered Low flammability.
🔥 Flammability Precaution Differences:
Precaution Area R-410A (A1 - Non-Flammable) R-454B (A2L - Low Flammability)

I also found some more info:
R-454B: Pros, Cons, & Comparisons to R-410A | Super Radiator Coils

EPA has imposed a deadline of January 1, 2025, after which the manufacture and import of many types of self-contained R-410A systems is prohibited. Consequently, unit manufacturers have been evaluating and deciding on a replacement since the phasedown’s announcement, with several of the largest domestic manufacturers settling on R-454B.

Our test data indicates that R-454B coils will require 10 – 20% additional heat transfer surface to meet the same capacity as and R-410A design.
R410A will be available for many years to come. They are only stopping the manufacturing of R410A equipment and recovered R410A will be mostly recycled. But R410A will experience gradual inflation and may become very expensive in a decade or two.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Originally Posted by jrref

That's exactly what I mean. The builder did put in the most basic system available at the time. Luckily 15 SEER was the norm circa 2015-2016 so yes they are solid units. But they could have installed 2 stage units which would have been a lot more efficient, cheaper to run, and more appropriate to install in our hot Florida climate but were more expensive to install. Fortunately, if you purchase a new home from the builder you can get the basic single stage, multi stage ( I think it's a 2 or 5 stage unit) or a variable speed unit. Just different cost to run each system. We are kind of lucky that electric here in Florida is relatively cheap or HVAC efficiency would be more of a concern. But how long will our electric stay relatively cheap?

We did a custom build and opted NOT for the cheapest unit, but the next model up for the humidity monitoring, if I remember correctly. But given today's more spec house type of operations and pricing environment, I would expect the cheapest unit would be installed.

Most A/C units have a standard life of 15 years, though that is an average and can vary by mfg and model. It is not a guarantee, and your A/C will work until it doesn't.

Access Denied

though the following link does not have A/Cs, the link shows the decrease in expected lifespan from 10 years ago
Home Appliance Life Expectancy Chart | Mr. Appliance

So, for A/Cs, over 15 years, you are starting to live on borrowed time, and the best time to replace the unit is in the winter, so that you don't have a summer time emergency, especially when one might be away

good luck to us!

[jrref]

Originally Posted by ithos

Thank you for the response. Very good information. I forgot or never knew that R410A was regarded as flammable. But I researched it and it is considered "non-flammable" where R454b is considered Low flammability.
������ Flammability Precaution Differences:
Precaution Area R-410A (A1 - Non-Flammable) R-454B (A2L - Low Flammability)

I also found some more info:
R-454B: Pros, Cons, & Comparisons to R-410A | Super Radiator Coils

EPA has imposed a deadline of January 1, 2025, after which the manufacture and import of many types of self-contained R-410A systems is prohibited. Consequently, unit manufacturers have been evaluating and deciding on a replacement since the phasedown’s announcement, with several of the largest domestic manufacturers settling on R-454B.

Our test data indicates that R-454B coils will require 10 – 20% additional heat transfer surface to meet the same capacity as and R-410A design.
R410A will be available for many years to come. They are only stopping the manufacturing of R410A equipment and recovered R410A will be mostly recycled. But R410A will experience gradual inflation and may become very expensive in a decade or two.

Thanks for the correction on 410A. I also found out that even if R454B is leaking, if the air is moving, it won't ignite if an ignition source is presented so it should be safe. R454B is a mixture of R-32 which has been used for years overseas and R1234yf which is currently used in our cars so not much new except for the mixture.

This whole subject on "new freon" I think is a little overblown since as I mentioned we have gone through this many times. And yes, over time, again we don't know how long, R410A will get expensive since it's not manufactured any longer. We will have to wait and see what happens.

If you need to or are planning on replacing your HVAC system I wouldn't stress over the new freon formulation since first there isn't much difference and second there is nothing any of us can do about it. What we do know is over the next couple of years these systems will continue to incease in price for a multitude of reasons.

[jrref]

Originally Posted by CoachKandSportsguy

We did a custom build and opted NOT for the cheapest unit, but the next model up for the humidity monitoring, if I remember correctly. But given today's more spec house type of operations and pricing environment, I would expect the cheapest unit would be installed.

Most A/C units have a standard life of 15 years, though that is an average and can vary by mfg and model. It is not a guarantee, and your A/C will work until it doesn't.

Access Denied

though the following link does not have A/Cs, the link shows the decrease in expected lifespan from 10 years ago
Home Appliance Life Expectancy Chart | Mr. Appliance

So, for A/Cs, over 15 years, you are starting to live on borrowed time, and the best time to replace the unit is in the winter, so that you don't have a summer time emergency, especially when one might be away

good luck to us!

From my unscientific survey the HVAC units installed here in the Villages by the builder lasts anywhere from 8-15 years although some have lasted longer. Small numbers will fail at 8 to 10 years and as you go further up in time, more fail. I guess if you keep replacing parts or even the compressor it can last a longer time but at some point it's not going to be running efficiently as it wears out over time. Like any home maintenance item you need to evaluate your needs and plan accordingly. Unfortunately, I'll bet most here in the Villages never pay any attention to their HVAC system, as I've seen by the many preventable failures my neighbors have had, until it stops running. Then they go "crazy" because they can't live without A/C here in Florida then they start complaining about the HVAC company that won't drop everything and come fix their unit.