[buggyone]

Originally Posted by gustavo

IIRC, I remember a year or so ago there was a community in a mid Atlantic state that had voluntary participation in the fire dept. One of the houses that did not contribute was on fire and the trucks got there and it was determined they were not part of the "insured" group and they let the house burn. Later one of the officials commented that if they had saved the house then it would disincentivize the participants to pony up the cash to pay for the dept, as everyone would know they could get service in an emergency.

Amazing is the only response I can muster!

I know that if a life was on the line that no Villager who had CPR training would not step right in and do their best.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by kittygilchrist

In the scenario set by the OP where the person is up and about walking the dog?? Maybe if the person is clearly severely debilitated and has a bedside caregiver I could be restrained but in that case it's unlikely a call for defib would go out. Calls for defib are made only after a 911 call is screened for apparent heart attack victims.

I don't understand why it would be unlikely? Suppose someone is out walking and falls to the ground. Anyone in the neighborhood might notice that and call 911. How can such a call be "screened" for heart attack if the caller has no idea why the person fell to the ground?

Also, remember, many Villagers have multiple health conditions. For example, a diabetic person could have cancer and coronary artery disease. And yet they might appear to be well when out walking.

[justjim]

The "spirit" of a living will as I understand it is to not keep a person alive who is in a "vegetable state". Reviving someone who has had an immediate heart attack is something entirely different.

That is why I have a living will (not to be kept alive as a vegetable for weeks) but being revived following a heart attack and hopefully have recovery I view as something different.

A living will keeps you off artifical life support systems for weeks and weeks. A Defibrillator is not an artificial life support machine.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by gomoho

So I'm wondering if there is anyone in The Villages that would be walking around and have a sudden heart attack that wouldn't want to saved. Now those people that are so ill that have a DNR I am thinking for the most part are either not out and about and if they are they are with a loved one that knows their wishes - so the chances of this being a problem are about as remote as the chance of a heart attack associated with electrical drilling or whatever was on the other web site. Why do we need to keep this going.

If we try to imagine every situation and every health condition it would be impossible. But, in my opinion, it's quite possible that there are lots of people who could be out and about and not want to be saved. We live in a elderly retirement community where lots of people have multiple health issues. And they wouldn't necessarily be out with a loved one or caregiver.

For example, there's an elderly woman who shops at Aldi's every week. She arrives in her golf cart. She is as thin as a rail but appears to be physically fit. By the looks of her, I would guess she could be over one hundred years old. Perhaps 105+. I have never seen her with anyone. She's old but healthy enough to be out walking by her self. Should anyone try to resusitate her? Where would you draw the line?

[JB in TV]

Originally Posted by gustavo

IIRC, I remember a year or so ago there was a community in a mid Atlantic state that had voluntary participation in the fire dept. One of the houses that did not contribute was on fire and the trucks got there and it was determined they were not part of the "insured" group and they let the house burn. Later one of the officials commented that if they had saved the house then it would disincentivize the participants to pony up the cash to pay for the dept, as everyone would know they could get service in an emergency.

We lived one place for a while that also had a "subscription" fire depatment. It was a requirement of the homeowners' insurance to have coverage, and the lender, but anyway... It was well known that if a house was on fire that wasn't a subscriber, the fire dept still put out the fire, but the homeowner was billed at a very high $/person-hour, and it was attached as a lien if not paid.

I suspect that the scenario psoted above is urban legend.

Not to get too far from the topic, as some one else mentioned, I doubt anyone would not be helped with the AED if the need was there, the 911 folks and local responders don't know who contributed...nor do they care.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by justjim

The "spirit" of a living will as I understand it is to not keep a person alive who is in a "vegetable state". Reviving someone who has had an immediate heart attack is something entirely different.

That is why I have a living will (not to be kept alive as a vegetable for weeks) but being revived following a heart attack and hopefully have recovery I view as something different.

A living will keeps you off artifical life support systems for weeks and weeks. A Defibrillator is not an artificial life support machine.

But you are only imagining your own situation when there may be any number of situations that we can't imagine. Being in a vegetable state is not the only situation. For example, someone with incurable cancer may have a stroke or heart attack and not want to be brought back. More and more people have cancer that is treated as a chronic condition. They may have been fighting it for ten years, on and off. So, for that reason, they might not want to be brought back.

When my aunt was quite elderly (late eighties) she would go for walks by herself and you would never know that she had anything wrong with her. But she had kidney failure and needed kidney dialysis a couple times per week. If you don't know about kidney dialysis, it's a terrible way to live. Some elderly people stop the treatment knowing they will die without it. If she was out walking and had a heart attack, I'm sure she wouldn't have wanted to be saved.

[Barefoot]

Originally Posted by justjim

The "spirit" of a living will as I understand it is to not keep a person alive who is in a "vegetable state". Reviving someone who has had an immediate heart attack is something entirely different. That is why I have a living will (not to be kept alive as a vegetable for weeks) but being revived following a heart attack and hopefully have recovery I view as something different.

A living will keeps you off artificial life support systems for weeks and weeks. A Defibrillator is not an artificial life support machine.

Yes!

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by Barefoot

Yes!

If you had read my reply to justjim, would you still have "agreed"? Not to mention my reply to Gomoho.

[Barefoot]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

If you had read my reply to justjim, would you still have "agreed"?

Before I replied, I did read your response to JJ. And yes, I would absolutely agree with Justjim.

[2BNTV]

Another thread that's akin to asking how many angels, dance on the head of a pin.

Unless one has a living will with this expressed wish, who would know what to do?

I would tend to think the most likely scenario would be if a person is already hospitalized and near death, their family members, would see their expressed wishes are carried out. I know I had asked my mother if she wanted to sign a DNR in the hospital, when she thought she was going to die.

Anything else, is purely hypothetical and speculative.

We could play the "what if game", but then we would be gone before the game finished. IMHO

[Barefoot]

Originally Posted by 2BNTV

Unless one has a living will with this expressed wish, who would know what to do? I would tend to think the most likely scenario would be if a person is already hospitalized and near death ... their family members, would see their expressed wishes are carried out. Anything else, is purely hypothetical and speculative.

Exactly.

[Matzy]

I removed my posting - discussion would be going to much in details. Sorry

[HMLRHT1]

All I can say is there are people out there to help people in their time of need. If you want all your scenarios answered then take a class on CPR and first aid. Basically if 911 is called and the patient is unconscious and not breathing or has no heart beat you start CPR and AED. You leave the DNR's and the living wills up to the ER Dr and the hospital staff. As far as the 911 dispatcher screening the calls for cardiac arrest, it is in the questions they are trained to ask. If they don't get sufficient answers to those question they err on the side of responding everyone. If your neighborhood has an AED, be thankful people care about each other enough to supply it and train to use it. Be kind to each other, neighbors.

[HMLRHT1]

Originally Posted by Matzy

If you want to go deeper with the question to be rescued or not, we have to question about existence of EM and physicians and fire department as well. I worked in this area for 27 years and never we had to think about this question because it was our duty to do our best to save peoples life even we have had to risk our own.

Matzy, I spent 20 years doing it too. I agree with you.

[DangeloInspections]

As a former career firefighter and Medic and NYS EMS Instructor for well over 20 years, I have done CPR and used an AED countless times.

Folks, it is simpler then many here are making it out to be. According to the Florida Department of Health Florida Department of Health

Florida's "Do Not Resuscitate Order" is state form 1896. Attached to the bottom of the Department of Health’s Form 1896 is a patient identification device, which may be removed from the form, laminated and can be worn on a chain around the neck, clipped to a key chain or to clothing/ bed, etc. so it can travel with the patient. It is equally as valid as the DNRO form and can be presented to emergency medical services when they arrive on scene and is designed to allow the patient to move between settings with one document.

So....if a person does not wish to be resuscitated, they would be wise to understand the DNRO, fill it out correctly, etc. You can do what it states above..wear it around your neck on a chain.

Anyone who has been properly trained in the use of an AED or CPR should and would check for this and comply. This is the surest way to have your wishes met.

Just a bracelet engraved with "DNR" would not work. If it did pity the fool who had those initials!

A first responder would need to see this official form or the bottom part of it to comply. Just having someone say "There is a DNR somewhere" does not cut it.

In real life if a family member is there screaming "Do CPR anyway!", then CPR is usually done. Should it be? Perhaps not, but I've been in those stressful situations...it is not fun. The chances of that happening here in The Villages is small.

Bottom line- if you want a DNR, wear the bottom part of the form around your neck. Nothing is foolproof or perfect, but that is most likely your best chance of having your wishes granted in public.

Hope that helps.

Frank