[biker1]

Hi-Def (aka 1080p) requires about 5 megabits per second per stream. 4k (aka 2160p) requires about 20 megabits per second. per stream. We used to stream Netflix to 2 TVs simultaneously without issues at full 1080p resolution with a nominal 10 megabits per second internet bandwidth. Most people have more than an order of magnitude more internet bandwidth than they require. This, of course, can't be avoided because the lowest tier of service by most providers is several hundred megabits per second. I have noticed an attempt by providers to upsell customers to even higher nominal bandwidths at higher prices. Most people don't have a good handle on what they actually need.

Originally Posted by FloridaGuy66

300 mbps. We can have 3 TV's steaming at once without any issues.

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by biker1

Hi-Def (aka 1080p) requires about 5 megabits per second per stream. 4k (aka 2160p) requires about 20 megabits per second. per stream. We used to stream Netflix to 2 TVs simultaneously without issues at full 1080p resolution with a nominal 10 megabits per second internet bandwidth. Most people have more than an order of magnitude more internet bandwidth than they require. This, of course, can't be avoided because the lowest tier of service by most providers is several hundred megabits per second. I have noticed an attempt by providers to upsell customers to even higher nominal bandwidths at higher prices. Most people don't have a good handle on what they actually need.

I switched from the Netflix premium service (4K) to the standard service (1080p) and I didn't notice any difference in picture quality. I have a 75 inch, 4K + HDR, television. I find it very strange that they don't even tell you when a program is in 4K or 1080p.

Note that Netflix just increased their prices this month. The standard service is now $17.99 per month, and the premium service is $24.99 per month.

[jrref]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

I switched from the Netflix premium service (4K) to the standard service (1080p) and I didn't notice any difference in picture quality. I have a 75 inch, 4K + HDR, television. I find it very strange that they don't even tell you when a program is in 4K or 1080p.

Note that Netflix just increased their prices this month. The standard service is now $17.99 per month, and the premium service is $24.99 per month.

I find this very strange because if you have anything but a 4K Samsung TV you will see many movies in 4k Dolby Vision and if you have a Samsung TV you will see them in HDR. These movies will definetly be at a noticably higher resolution and brighter. There is no way to not notice it. But, depending on what you watch, you may be watching 1080P content on Netflix so in that case you won't see any difference.

Along with this information, another reason to dump cable and stream no matter which Internet provider you use is because the cable companies are not sending all their content at 1080P. Much if it is still at 720P. Your TV will be upscalling it to 1080P or 4K in most cases but that upscaling is not a substitite for higher resolution content. I helped a couple switch from Xfinity to Quantum with Youtube TV using 4K Roku streaming devices and without any prompting from me they mentioned the picture looked a lot sharper to them after watching content for a couple of days.

[biker1]

Unless you are looking at true 4K material up close (say a few feet), you probably can't tell the difference between a 4K and a 1080p version. Our typical viewing distance is 12 feet for a 75" set. There is not much material in 4K. You can find some nice 4k demos on YouTube, typically nature scenes.

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

I switched from the Netflix premium service (4K) to the standard service (1080p) and I didn't notice any difference in picture quality. I have a 75 inch, 4K + HDR, television. I find it very strange that they don't even tell you when a program is in 4K or 1080p.

Note that Netflix just increased their prices this month. The standard service is now $17.99 per month, and the premium service is $24.99 per month.

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by jrref

I find this very strange because if you have anything but a 4K Samsung TV you will see many movies in 4k Dolby Vision and if you have a Samsung TV you will see them in HDR. These movies will definetly be at a noticably higher resolution and brighter. There is no way to not notice it. But, depending on what you watch, you may be watching 1080P content on Netflix so in that case you won't see any difference.

Along with this information, another reason to dump cable and stream no matter which Internet provider you use is because the cable companies are not sending all their content at 1080P. Much if it is still at 720P. Your TV will be upscalling it to 1080P or 4K in most cases but that upscaling is not a substitite for higher resolution content. I helped a couple switch from Xfinity to Quantum with Youtube TV using 4K Roku streaming devices and without any prompting from me they mentioned the picture looked a lot sharper to them after watching content for a couple of days.

I have a Sony TV. I can watch Netflix through my Xfinity cable box, or using a direct wifi stream using a 4K Roku stick. In either case, the picture looks the same. I wish the provider would tell you which format you are actually watching, but apparently, they want to keep it a secret.

[jrref]

Originally Posted by biker1

Hi-Def (aka 1080p) requires about 5 megabits per second per stream. 4k (aka 2160p) requires about 20 megabits per second. per stream. We used to stream Netflix to 2 TVs simultaneously without issues at full 1080p resolution with a nominal 10 megabits per second internet bandwidth. Most people have more than an order of magnitude more internet bandwidth than they require. This, of course, can't be avoided because the lowest tier of service by most providers is several hundred megabits per second. I have noticed an attempt by providers to upsell customers to even higher nominal bandwidths at higher prices. Most people don't have a good handle on what they actually need.

Technically, you are 100% correct, but there is more than streaming that requires higher speeds. For example, if you have cameras or a video doorbell, when someone comes to the door or the camera senses movement, the video has to go from your home to the server in the cloud then back down to your device. Slow cable upload speeds or slower speeds in general make the response time very slow. When I had cable and my video doorbell rang, the person was gone most of the time before I got the video. Another example it if you backup your devices to the cloud which you should be doing. Or if you upload a lot of files or pictures. Then upload speed becomes an issue.

So all this said, Most of us Villagers will get by fine anywhere from 200-500 mbs. Remember, with cable you will get slow-downs from time to time which will cause some buffering so you want a higher speed than 100Mbs to give you some margin when this happens.

If you are a gamer, then higher speeds and shorter latency is what you will want. I'm not sure how many "gamers" there are in the Villages but this is a driver for faster speeds.

These high internet speeds are mainly for homes with families where you have three or more people using the internet or if you have a business at home or you are a Youtuber or upload a lot of content to the internet.

At the end of the day, $40 for 300Mbs or $50 for $500Mbs or if you were lucky and got the $35 for 1Gbs that was available recently these services are what you want. If you have fiber at your home, you want that service because the download and upload speeds are the same, you are NOT sharing your bandwidth with all your neighbors meaning you have a direct connection so no slow-downs during peak times and the latency is the shortest. Always choose fiber over cable at any price.

[biker1]

The majority of Villages would be fine with a nominal 40 megabits per second up and down. It is disingenuous on the part of vendors to suggest that hundreds of megabits per second to gigabits per second will provide you a better experience. Those who actually need higher bandwidths will generally know. Regarding backups to the cloud, they are typically incremental backups and don't require much bandwidth and it really doesn't matter how long they take. If you have no clue what you need then you are probably paying for much more than you need.

Originally Posted by jrref

Technically, you are 100% correct, but there is more than streaming that requires higher speeds. For example, if you have cameras or a video doorbell, when someone comes to the door or the camera senses movement, the video has to go from your home to the server in the cloud then back down to your device. Slow cable upload speeds or slower speeds in general make the response time very slow. When I had cable and my video doorbell rang, the person was gone most of the time before I got the video. Another example it if you backup your devices to the cloud which you should be doing. Or if you upload a lot of files or pictures. Then upload speed becomes an issue.

So all this said, Most of us Villagers will get by fine anywhere from 200-500 mbs. Remember, with cable you will get slow-downs from time to time which will cause some buffering so you want a higher speed than 100Mbs to give you some margin when this happens.

If you are a gamer, then higher speeds and shorter latency is what you will want. I'm not sure how many "gamers" there are in the Villages but this is a driver for faster speeds.

These high internet speeds are mainly for homes with families where you have three or more people using the internet or if you have a business at home or you are a Youtuber or upload a lot of content to the internet.

At the end of the day, $40 for 300Mbs or $50 for $500Mbs or if you were lucky and got the $35 for 1Gbs that was available recently these services are what you want. If you have fiber at your home, you want that service because the download and upload speeds are the same, you are NOT sharing your bandwidth with all your neighbors meaning you have a direct connection so no slow-downs during peak times and the latency is the shortest. Always choose fiber over cable at any price.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

I switched from the Netflix premium service (4K) to the standard service (1080p) and I didn't notice any difference in picture quality. I have a 75 inch, 4K + HDR, television. I find it very strange that they don't even tell you when a program is in 4K or 1080p.

Note that Netflix just increased their prices this month. The standard service is now $17.99 per month, and the premium service is $24.99 per month.

I notice when shows are in 720 resolution (typically YTTV) but I'm not sure I notice the difference between 1080 and 4K. I do see a banner with the rate when I first tune to a show but I'm not sure if that's coming from the television or the firestick.

When I was concerned about usage limits I put my firestick into a non-4K mode. Is it possible your device is configured that way and you didn't notice any difference because you never watched a show in 4K?

Thanks for pointing out that the standard plan is only 1080. I have premium for a different reason and was considering a downgrade but now I'll have to give that a bit more thought.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

I have a Sony TV. I can watch Netflix through my Xfinity cable box, or using a direct wifi stream using a 4K Roku stick. In either case, the picture looks the same. I wish the provider would tell you which format you are actually watching, but apparently, they want to keep it a secret.

It would be difficult for the provider to tell you that information. There is not a separate data stream for messages from the provider. They don't send a popup or special commercial to those using the 4K streams. The best they might do is present two versions of a show and allow you to choose one but I would find it annoying to have yet another button to click to play the movie (images of George Jetson just popped into my head).

The television should to be able to tell you what resolution it is displaying though each brand would have its own way of accessing that info.

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

I notice when shows are in 720 resolution (typically YTTV) but I'm not sure I notice the difference between 1080 and 4K. I do see a banner with the rate when I first tune to a show but I'm not sure if that's coming from the television or the firestick.

When I was concerned about usage limits I put my firestick into a non-4K mode. Is it possible your device is configured that way and you didn't notice any difference because you never watched a show in 4K?

Thanks for pointing out that the standard plan is only 1080. I have premium for a different reason and was considering a downgrade but now I'll have to give that a bit more thought.

For the record, all of my equipment is in the 4K mode. I have a 4K Roku stick, a 4K cable box, a 4K Blu-Ray player, and a 4K television, and everything is set to 4K.

[jrref]

Originally Posted by biker1

The majority of Villages would be fine with a nominal 40 megabits per second up and down. It is disingenuous on the part of vendors to suggest that hundreds of megabits per second to gigabits per second will provide you a better experience. Those who actually need higher bandwidths will generally know. Regarding backups to the cloud, they are typically incremental backups and don't require much bandwidth and it really doesn't matter how long they take. If you have no clue what you need then you are probably paying for much more than you need.

I agree with you on the backups. After the first full backup, the rest are incremental and not a problem. The problem is with the first full backup or if you want to run another full backup periodically or if you have multiple computers which we do. When I had cable, my upload speed was about 30Mbs and I couldn't get the full backup to complete.

As far as 40Mbs being sufficient, that could be true if you had fiber internet and were getting that speed all the time and were hard wired to your router. But as we know, even with fiber, forget about cable, the internet is variable so you need some extra speed as a buffer or you could have problems. When I help Villagers switch to Fiber Internet, I hear the same story often. That they needed to pay for higher cable internet speeds because when the snow birds returned their cable internet speed would vary enough to cause their streaming devices to buffer and were tired of slow internet when using their computers. The other thing that is often overlooked is for example, say you have 100Mbs service at your router. When you are hard wired or very close to your wifi device you will get this speed. But when you are on Wifi, as you move away from your wifi device, your speed will get slower and slower. Many of us have TVs, computers and other devices on Wifi because we can hard wire them. So having 40Mbs service in theory, if you are wired can be enough bandwidth as you mentioned, but in reality, most use wifi for almost everything so 40Mbs will not be enough speed. This is why I believe most ISPs give you a minimum of 200-500Mbs. They want to service to work for most people and don't wan the call backs. Just not worth it for them.

You make a good point though, ISPs are using speed as an advertising gimmick to some extent. Even if they offered you 1Gbs speed, you would probably never use all that bandwidth. If you are not using the bandwidth it doesn't cost them anymore to provide 1Gbs service vs 500Gbs service. Where speed and number of users comes into play is with Fixed wireless from Verizon and T-Moble and with cable. In all these cases, their transport system is designed to handle only a certain amount of users simultaneously. When this is exceeded you can experience slow-downs.

[biker1]

Doubtful. I get 90% of nominal bandwidth everywhere in my 2100 sq ft house with a router that is centrally located. Regardless, most of the bandwidth is used by video and as long as you can get 5 megabits per second you are good to go.

Originally Posted by jrref

I agree with you on the backups. After the first full backup, the rest are incremental and not a problem. The problem is with the first full backup or if you want to run another full backup periodically or if you have multiple computers which we do. When I had cable, my upload speed was about 30Mbs and I couldn't get the full backup to complete.

As far as 40Mbs being sufficient, that could be true if you had fiber internet and were getting that speed all the time and were hard wired to your router. But as we know, even with fiber, forget about cable, the internet is variable so you need some extra speed as a buffer or you could have problems. When I help Villagers switch to Fiber Internet, I hear the same story often. That they needed to pay for higher cable internet speeds because when the snow birds returned their cable internet speed would vary enough to cause their streaming devices to buffer and were tired of slow internet when using their computers. The other thing that is often overlooked is for example, say you have 100Mbs service at your router. When you are hard wired or very close to your wifi device you will get this speed. But when you are on Wifi, as you move away from your wifi device, your speed will get slower and slower. Many of us have TVs, computers and other devices on Wifi because we can hard wire them. So having 40Mbs service in theory, if you are wired can be enough bandwidth as you mentioned, but in reality, most use wifi for almost everything so 40Mbs will not be enough speed. This is why I believe most ISPs give you a minimum of 200-500Mbs. They want to service to work for most people and don't wan the call backs. Just not worth it for them.

You make a good point though, ISPs are using speed as an advertising gimmick to some extent. Even if they offered you 1Gbs speed, you would probably never use all that bandwidth. If you are not using the bandwidth it doesn't cost them anymore to provide 1Gbs service vs 500Gbs service. Where speed and number of users comes into play is with Fixed wireless from Verizon and T-Moble and with cable. In all these cases, their transport system is designed to handle only a certain amount of users simultaneously. When this is exceeded you can experience slow-downs.

[FloridaGuy66]

Originally Posted by biker1

Hi-Def (aka 1080p) requires about 5 megabits per second per stream. 4k (aka 2160p) requires about 20 megabits per second. per stream. We used to stream Netflix to 2 TVs simultaneously without issues at full 1080p resolution with a nominal 10 megabits per second internet bandwidth. Most people have more than an order of magnitude more internet bandwidth than they require. This, of course, can't be avoided because the lowest tier of service by most providers is several hundred megabits per second. I have noticed an attempt by providers to upsell customers to even higher nominal bandwidths at higher prices. Most people don't have a good handle on what they actually need.

You're assuming that we are getting non-compressed pure 1080p from your streaming service. That is EXTREMELY rare. Services like Netflix and Prime compress the heck out of everything. Works totally fine for some things, not so much for other things.

Anything over 300 mbps is overkill for 99% of the population.

[jrref]

Originally Posted by biker1

Doubtful. I get 90% of nominal bandwidth everywhere in my 2100 sq ft house with a router that is centrally located. Regardless, most of the bandwidth is used by video and as long as you can get 5 megabits per second you are good to go.

You are fortunate that you get 90% of nominal bandwidth everywhere in your 2100 sq ft house. I've been in a lot of homes here in the Villages and coverage depends on the quality of the wifi device used and the floor plan layout. Although the cable and fiber techs try to place the wifi device in the best location, I've seen some terrible installs, especially with cable. These days the techs are instructed to do the install as quick as possible. But with a good wifi device placed in a good location, yes, you should get most of the wired speed. So a great example is the new Quantum fiber recently installed in Bonita Villas. These are Courtyard Villas with a common, long floor plan. Meaning usually a bedroom converted office on one end then the kitchen, livingrooms and bedrooms as you go to the other end of the home. When Quantum installs the SmartNid/router they also put the wifi7 pod right next to it on the wall of the bedroom/office in most cases. Although the wifi works, it gets pretty slow and spotty as you go to the other end of the home. What I've been doing for many is making a 10-15ft Ethernet cable then moving the Wifi7 pod over to their desk or a shelf on the desk were there is limited obstructions to the rest of the home. The result is the wifi signal is almost full strength all over the home, even in the Lanai on the other side of the home. In the "old" days at Verizon, the techs would do stuff like this to get the most out of the service. These days, the techs don't have ethernet cable on the truck or are even allowed to make cables. They install, get it working and as long as there is a signal they are done. I don't agree with this but this is the situation.Of course you might get a tech who may take the extra step but it's rare.

I don't disagree with the notion of 5 or 10 or 20 or 40 Mbs being sufficient especially since everything we stream is compressed but you are assuming near perfect conditions. And I don't blame the ISPs "pushing" higher speeds so most installations will work with minimal callbacks. If they are willing to provide reasonable speeds at cheap monthly prices like the fiber companies are doing today, I'm happy. It will be interesting to see what the future holds.

[biker1]

What is labeled as 1080p consumes about 5 megabits per second. Anything over about 40 megabits per second is overkill for 99% of the population.

Originally Posted by FloridaGuy66

You're assuming that we are getting non-compressed pure 1080p from your streaming service. That is EXTREMELY rare. Services like Netflix and Prime compress the heck out of everything. Works totally fine for some things, not so much for other things.

Anything over 300 mbps is overkill for 99% of the population.