No Excuses
 

There should be consistency between all courses and if that is not happening then there is a communication and management problem. We use to say that in the north it is "weather" and in the south it is "critters". That may have changed a little and brought some "weather" into the mix this year. Having said this if the staff on hand cannot handle the problems then Golf Management should bring in better professionals to consult on the problems.
And if they can't handle it they should communicate that to the players.
(At one time I managed a Pro Shop for one of the golf courses of the Mariott Corporation and if we had a problem with greens or fairway the greens Superintendent called in help to understand why and what it would take to fix the problem.)
Because of the number of complaints I don't understand why Golf Mgt. does not communicate better with the players. If the green superintendents of the various courses do not understand "why" then an expert should be called in for help and the players should be told of the actions in place or the reason it cannot be corrected. :read:

Feedback
 

I recently spoke to someone responsible for maintenance and asked how often the holes were changed on the execs. He stated every 2 days. I have played on execs that were nothing but sand around the hole because of all the play. While the rest of the green was fine. I said I thought they needed to be changed daily, fell on deaf ears. Also I have been told by several people including a supervisor at Cain that each Championship is responsible for three execs. That is why there should be no difference, between the quality of the courses. The big selling point for us as we just moved here in Dec. was the fact that while driving around we were unable to tell the difference in the courses, exec vs championship. Generally execs are cheesy at best, not here. We had friends down from Atlanta 3 weeks ago and the over seed on the Champion was an embarrassment. I do not believe it was the weather because what was there was growing. It was a poor over seed. I have always thought that it is the little things that make a difference in a golf course. Filling ball washers, grooming around sand traps, you name it, it is the small stuff and if that is not getting done the big stuff never does. There is a palm tree that is still alive lying on it's side on the back of Jackaranda. All it needs is to be righted for it to live. I mentioned it to the Marshall and he said he would tell them. I am rambling but the point is, without feed back nothing ever changes. Politely suggest that things are not up to par... For those of you that have been here before with the snowbirds are these the conditions we should expect? Also unverified I heard that the courses here get 17000 rounds of golf a day, Any ideas of the validity of that. Anyway regardless of who is paying, in some form the golf courses are a major key to this place. The more feedback both positive and negative will make this place better.

I've sent an email to golfthevillages.com and have not yet received a reply. This morning I also sent one to the amenities committee at AACboard@districtgov.org <AACboard@districtgov.org>

We'll see what happens. If we can find a good source to send our complaints to, and enough people follow through and voice their concerns, at least we know the problem is out there, in the open, and we can see how responsive they will be. At the very least, there obviously needs to be better communication as REH7380 said.

If anyone finds the person or committee who will respond, please let the rest of us know..Thanks!

I did send an e-mail to golfthevillages and stated that I was about to purchase a home but was alarmed about some complaints I have been hearing about the state of the greens and that --to me was a reflection on the possible reduction in care taken to the entire property and received this reply today "

"we haven’t received much negative feedback from our players. I will tell you that I’ve been here 10 years, and this by far has been our worst winter, weather wise! We’ve had 16 days of frost, and probably a couple more coming this week. As you can imagine this is not conducive to growing grass, it’s affected everything from landscape to the residents yards themselves. Couple this with the amount of play we get in the winter and it does present some challenges. Consequently the greens may not be as good as they normally are, but I assure you this has nothing to do with any “decline in care of the community”. What makes The Villages so unique is via the amenities fees, it is set-up to ensure the community will always have proper funding to be maintained to a high standard."

Seems to me to be a fair response ....

I respectfully disagree. True, we've had a lot of frost, but rye grass is not affected by frost, and had they overseeded properly, the frost shouldn't have been an issue. We've had plenty of frosts other years as well, and nowhere near the poor conditions on fairways and greens. Also, look at the greens where there aren't any problems - for example the putting green at Sarasota, and greens at nearby golf courses such as Del Webb. They all experienced the bad winter weather and heavy play, and those greens are excellent. Logic tells me that the weather was not the problem. I could see if you want to blame a few bare spots on some of the greens on the weather, but using Orange Blossom as an example, there is more going on than the weather. And to say they haven't received much negative feedback from the players, is just untrue. Must be they're not listening to the players.

I am not living here --YET--- but as I stated before hopefully by the end of the year -so I have not seen any of the courses since last November.

The response came from Country Club operations

And by the way --they say they have never heard of Talkofthevillages web site !!!!:1rotfl:

I will be there March 1st to see for myself. If the courses are in bad shape and I don't get an explaination that is reasonable I will not be puchasing a place there. My agent will also hear this. I do know that TV is a great place but I am a golfer,that's why I want to buy there. Without well kept golf courses it will lose alot of it's attraction.

PLEASE - if you are dissatisfied with condition of the greens, stop making reservations at the executive courses, especially Yankee Clipper, Bogart, Bacall and Pelican, my favorites.

Thanks a bunch for the extra tee times.

I agree that the greens on both the championship and exec's can

use better maintenance.

But as i see it if golfers would fix there ball marks and would pick up

there feet so there spikes don't wreck the grass around the holes the

conditions would be much better.

According to numerous sources (google search), frost can affect rye grass. Here in Atlanta, dh and I have a golf membership that includes privileges at 18 courses. All are over seeded with winter rye. All seemed affected by sustained periods of frost; some more than others. On individual courses, some holes are in terrible shape and some are in very good shape. Same course manager, same course.

When I spoke with logic, I thought she told me that weather was a significant factor. She also said that slope, amount and time of day of sunlight vs. shade and other factors conspire to affect different courses and different areas of the same course. She even confided that, in the worse economic downturn since the Big One, management has had to curtail expenses.

For some reason, she didn't tell me whether the "powers that be" are indifferent, whether they are balancing a host of challenges and priorities, or whether someone made an "untrue" statement about the relative amount of feedback he or she was aware of.

She did say, "PT, think about it. To whom would you rather open your door-- the bearer of honey or vinegar?"

If I understood logic correctly, I thought she made some good points.

I received the letter today regarding the 2010 Villages Resident Survey.
This is the opportunity for you who have concerns for your voice to be heard.

give feed do not just complain
 

I just got off the phone with 2 of the championship courses and they were very nice and informative. They welcome feed back. Both negative and positive. The one common thing I have seen here in TV is that agencies want (in my experience) to make things better. Folks give feed back, feed back feed back. If the ball washers are empty tell someone, if the greens are sandy say something as I did. They can only fix something they know about. And I think the over seed is bad, but I was just told that the weather can play on how it grows in even when it is done correctly. One course gets the correct temp and rain while another does not, so poor over seed. I plan on calling and talking to the other course managers and getting more opinions. My old philosophy in the military was I did not believe anything I was told unless I got at least 2 out 3 people saying the same thing. For those thinking of moving here all I can say is that I believe that they are trying to do the right thing.

I also said in an earlier post that I had heard that the holes were changed every two days on the execs. Well that is still to be determined. I have gotten different answers and still need to get it resolved. There are some greens it could stand to be changed twice a day.

quill, just curious, why would you change the holes twice a day...gn

Thanks for the info. I agree that the people working at the courses are great. I do wonder, at times, if they are just giving us the "vanilla version" as the Mallory pro that was mentioned in a previous post. But generally I think they want the conditions to be as good as they can be, and they will work to fix things within their control, such as ball washers, etc.

The overseeding is another ball of wax in my mind. It is my understanding that the maintenance company hired by the Developer controls the overseeding, and as Pturner implied, perhaps there is some cost cutting going on. I had heard from several sources that OneSource cut back on the amount of rye grass seed that was used on the overseeding of Orange blossom fr example. To me that sounds like a cost cutting maneuver. Did they do that at other courses? The fairways of most of the courses in the Villages right now are pretty ratty. Was it environmental conditions affecting growth or cost cutbacks in the amount of seed put down? With all the money the developer makes in greens fees, I have a hard time believing that there isn't enough money available to keep the courses in good condition. Then again, maybe they tried cutting costs not realizing the winter conditions would be so bad, and have learned from their experience and will do things differently next year, by allocating more money into their golf course maintenance fund.

I would just like to hear managment say "yes, there is a problem, this is what caused it, this is what we will do to make things better next year." At ths point we are just guessing. Of course, temperature, watering, etc. will affect certain holes and certain courses up to a point. But the conditions have been fairly similiar this winter in the Villages/Lady Lake area. I could see that few holes here and there would be bad, but with so many courses bad in The Villages, and courses good outside the Villages, it makes one wonder why there are such drastic differences.

Of course, with March just around the corner, and the temperatures warming up, along with the rain, in a few weeks the courses should be looking a lot better. They can improve pretty quickly with certain conditions in place. Let's keep our fingers crossed.:laugh:

Golfnut if the green is getting so much play that the area around the hole literally has no grass left around it then it is probably time to move the hole. It is no fun to golf on that and probably not good for the green. It has happened more than once to me in the last few weeks. The same applies to tee boxes. It is not any fun to tee off in an area that no longer has grass. Although there is some leeway as to where one places there ball on the tee box. As to whether they are trying to save money with the over seed, I can see no benefit from that and so far have no indication from anyone I have talked about that this occurred. Think about it the short term potential gain ($) versus the long term loss of sales and house value loss. Does not make much sense at all. I would prefer to think we had a very bad year with the fairways. I do, however as I have said before, think there can be something done about the greens, including moving the hole more often. Slamming the courses in a place(The Villages) that seems to go out of their way to please is a little harsh in my opinion. Everyone is welcome to their opinion but if you want something fixed then give feed back and not always negative. This is not intended as a lecture or a slam on anyone here. I just think we owe it to ourselves to give feedback if we want something fixed.

You have done well. You got off your duff and actually made some phone calls rather than just rant on this thread. Giving course management the opportunity to respond to your concerns......and then verifying the information is a good idea. I commend you for your effort......

Oops, you are right, BB. I did imply that, but didn't mean to. I have no such information.

i was going to post a long response but here is the abbreviated version, i love TV courses and they are as good if not better than any courses around, just my .02...gn

I guess your long version would have been your dime. :laugh:

pt ???...gn

Well, sometimes my humor falls flat.

i hear ya, and i know you don't want to hear the .25 answer...gn

Not unless it comes with a cup of coffee.:mornincoffee:

Sorry, hijack over and out.

I would just like to make a point here. I do not believe that my entire thread has been hi-jacked but, I would remind you all that my original concern is about the condition of the greens on the executive courses. Not the layouts or the fairways or the ballwashers or anything else. Just the greens. I have never played a champion course here, as my ability is not at the championship level. The thing that drew me to The Villages is the huge selection of executive courses and the much advertised phrase " Free Golf Forever " and with my own cart for Petes sake. It doesn't get better then that but, the truth be told, and weather aside, somebody has goofed as to the condition of these greens. Golfnut states that our greens are the best around. I say that is not so and in the good spirit in which it is intended, I invite him/her to join me for a round at Baseline, and lets make a comparison on the condition of the greens. My treat.

Sorry beartrack. Not to take anything away from your original post - I've been ranting about Championship greens because that is what I play, and you are correct - what little I played the Exec. courses, earlier in the year, the conditions were good on some courses, but poor on others. I do think people need to get offcampus and see and play other golf courses before they compare our courses to those outside.

I contacted the District Board (on golfthevillages.com) a few days ago and the email went out to all the members, asking them who to contact regarding golf course conditions. Most of the members got back to me and told me to contact Country Club Administration at 753-3396 and they would be able to point me in the right direction. One member told me to contact Property Management in Southern Trace. He said the Championship Courses are a private business and the AAC has no jurisdiction there. I expect that would apply to the executive courses as well.

I was not trying to hijack your thread, my comments were meant as constructive for both us and course management. As I stated the execs are run by the championships. They all are divide up and I believe each has at least 3 execs to manage. So to answer your question is the quality of maintenance of the exec green should be the same as the championship greens. Now there are other variables that are out of the maintenance guys hands and one of the big ones I believe is the amount of play. And as I have tried to point out if anyone has a problem with a course then take the time to find out which championship manages the exec you are on and give them feed back. This is not directed at anyone, but often it is earlier to complain on a forum than to actually make the effort to contact the individual responsible and get it fixed. This is not a phenomenon unique to this forum, it happens on other I frequent. But I do see it all the time here, especially in regards to restaurants. Feed back is the answer. If it falls on deaf ears then by all means, especially with restaurants, slam away because I do not want to waste my money there. But with the golf courses we need to get things fixed. As I think I said the courses and the people are the reasons we moved here. Thanks for your time

You are right on the mark with your comment about letting the courses know directly, as opposed to just complaining on a forum.

I did complain to Mallory one day, and all I got back was the answer that it was the weather this winter. As I've mentioned previously, based on conditions throughout the LadyLake area, and the better condition of a number of the courses outside The Villages, I suspect it is more than the weather, so I've elected to "go to the next level". I truly hope we can get some answers and if enough people let them know we are unhappy, it will certainly give them incentive, if they don't have it already, to make things better this upcoming year.

But the key is people must let management know their concerns. I as given this number to call: 753-3396 and ask for Mr. Basso, who is the Golf Operations Manager for the Villages. He works closely with each individual golf course facility manager. I've tried a couple times and he's out in the field but will keep trying. I urge others to do the same. Let's get our concerns out there.

:agree:Besides, remember, you could be playing in the snow someplace else.

Talent
 

I believe they do not have the talent to support the courses and this is witnessed by the number of complaints. If they had people in charge to oversee the courses with management and technical experience these problems should not exist. I don't profess to be real knowledgable in course maintenance but it is logical to believe that if there is high wind, dry greens,etc. the holes should be changed at least every day to prevent the grass around them being killed or harmed.
Again, it falls back on 1. Good course maintenance, 2. Good communications with players 3. funding to keep the course in good condition. Since The Villages use golf as a significant reason to buy then it is sort of lacking in sincerity to allow the main draw to become an issue with residents/players.
Since a private company is responsible for golf activities I would hope the
developer and the other internal organizations are coming down on the Golf Mgt Co. to ensure they keep up acceptable standards. :ohdear:

With the cost of everything else rising, it's nice to have something that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Not all of us have big retirement dollars and that is what the original intent of establishing this community was in the first place....to allow more people the opportunity to enjoy their remaining days/years after working so hard and so long. We are comfortable, but far from rich and do have to budget. Sorry, I don't mean for this post to sound tacky, but there is supposed to be something for everyone here.

For the past week or so since I started this thread, and taking the advice of some of the posters here, I have been making phone calls and sending email in an effort to discover who or what entity is responsible for the maintenance of the greens on the executive courses.

Through Thevillages.net golf site I finally got through to what I am convinced is the correct place to answer my concerns. This morning I recieved a phone call from Todd Basso, who introduced himself as the superintendant of golf course mantenance for for The Villages Executive golf courses. He told me that based on many complaints that have come across his desk about the poor condition of some of the exec. greens. He went out and investigated the alleged problems. He said that I am right about the poor conditions that exist at some of the exec greens, especially in Marion county.

He offered no excuses, just apologies for the lack of proper condition of the greens. He also explained that there are several maintenance companys with contracts to do specific courses in the villages and it appears to him that some companys are doing a better job then others. While he refused to use the unusual weather this year as an excuse, he did state that they were totaly unprepared to cope with it and that would never be the case again. He also stated that he is putting a process in place to rehabilitate our greens and that they will be back to great condition as soon as possible.

Todd also said he himself plays Baseline and there is no question that their greens are better then ours, and by next year ours will be just as good.

I would like to thank Todd Basso for his very sincere and informative phone call and I would also thank TOTV posters for helping me to get my concerns answered. I do hope that as a result of our efforts we will all be able to enjoy better golf.

By the way, told also stated to never hesitate to notify him of any concerns you may have about the executive courses. His job is answer our concerns and make the golf experience better for everyone.

Beartrack thank you very much for your due diligence.

Excellent job, Bear

:thumbup::clap2:

Thanks for your efforts and keeping everyone "posted".

I too had a conversation with Todd Basso this morning, and he basically told me everything that you said, Beartrack. I of course had been asking him about the Championship courses. He admitted there was a problem,he did mention problems with the overseeding, and said there are a number of issues that need to be addressed, and they will be addressed. I came away very impressed with this man. I felt he was sincere, and I think he means business. From what he said it didn't sound like a money problem, it was more a maintenance issue. He also mentioned the overseeding schedule, and how they may be doing it earlier next year to make sure it is all in place by the time the bad weather comes. I'm glad I had the opportunity to speak with him, and I feel relieved that they are aware of the problems and are working on them. That's all we can ask.

Good Job Beartrack
 

Thanks for following through and reaching someone who would take ownership. Not wanting to be too hard but the question is why did it take a call from you to get action? If it is his responsibility to see that the Exec. courses are in good shape and they are not then there is a question as to either his technical skills or communication skills. I know I may get some critizim for raising this question but I have a problem when someone does not do their job until they are brought to the table. As I understand it he said,
"He told me that based on many complaints that have come across his desk about the poor condition of some of the exec. greens. He went out and investigated the alleged problems. He said that I am right about the poor conditions that exist at some of the exec greens, especially in Marion county."
If he is the superintendent of the Executive courses why did it take all the complaints for him to go look at the Courses. He should have been aware of the problems before the complaints? Hopefully he will learn from this?:confused:

Thank You Beartrack!

I appreciate the information.

Thank you very much, beartrack, for taking the initiative and following through on this. Borrowing a quote related to a much more serious topic we must now, "Trust, but verify". Those of us who are not yet TV residents must "trust" that this issue will be completely resolved... and not resurface. Those of you who are there, hopefully will do the "verifying". Please keep us posted so that we can do our part as appropriate in the future.

Job well done... Thank you once again!

On Wednesday, I played the Cherry Hill to Laurel Valley rotation at Palmer. The greens are definitley not in " pristine" condition. If bare ground and blotchy grass mean "pristine", I am in the wrong place. I made a comment at the pro shop desk, the pro was not in his office, their response, it must be my fault. " This is Palmer Legends, everything is first class here."

The quote you state from the person behind the desk at Palmer is so out of character from anyone I have encountered at any of the golf courses in the past eight years. Is there more to your story?