[redwitch]

I think Tal got some of his ideas from one of my posts. If you read all of the posts, someone said that they had heard a lot of shouting and cursing as they drove by in their golf cart. From what I could gather, it was at least two parties yelling at each other.

Personally, if someone were to accuse me of something nefarious because I was talking to some kids, I would try to explain my innocence and assure whomever no harm was meant. If I was the grandparent feeling my grandson was in danger, I'm not sure I would really hear what was being said. I can easily see this turning into a serious confrontation. i don't know the facts, but I sincerely doubt the grandfather was entirely innocent in this whole mess. I think it probably could have been handled better by both of these men. And why should someone have to leave a pool if doing nothing wrong just because someone else perceives wrongdoing?

[Bonny]

Originally Posted by redwitch

I think Tal got some of his ideas from one of my posts. If you read all of the posts, someone said that they had heard a lot of shouting and cursing as they drove by in their golf cart. From what I could gather, it was at least two parties yelling at each other.

Personally, if someone were to accuse me of something nefarious because I was talking to some kids, I would try to explain my innocence and assure whomever no harm was meant. If I was the grandparent feeling my grandson was in danger, I'm not sure I would really hear what was being said. I can easily see this turning into a serious confrontation. i don't know the facts, but I sincerely doubt the grandfather was entirely innocent in this whole mess. I think it probably could have been handled better by both of these men. And why should someone have to leave a pool if doing nothing wrong just because someone else perceives wrongdoing?

I totally agree ! There's a lot to this we don't know and we probably will never know the whole story. Everything here is pretty much speculation

[MDLNB]

For some reason, many folks on here believe that the grandfather was wrong for trying to protect the children. I hope those folks aren't at the pool when my wife takes the grandkids. You are assuming that the suspect is innocent. You are saying that the grandfather should have taken his grandkid and left, thereby alleviating any possibility of an altercation. That leaves two ten year olds in the pool if they were not under the supervision of the grandfather. Ok, you established guilt on the grandfather because he didn't avoid confrontation. Let's take that scenario further. Suppose, instead of confronting the suspect, he left with his grandchild, leaving the other two in the pool with the 41 year old suspect. Rather than assuming his innocence and the grandfather's guilt, lets assume the 41 yr old is a pervert. Hey, assumptions go both ways. What happens to those two children? How would that grandfather feel if he left them to their plight and they were molested? How would you feel about the grandfather then? Still guilty, right? So, no matter what he does, or doesn't do, he earned your skeptical conviction of guilt. Now, assume that the grandfather sees this character that appears shady (liberal interpretation since everyone else has been quite liberal with theirs) and tells the girls to get out of the pool. Perhaps the 41 yo is offended and stalks (liberal interpretation) up to the grandfather and accuses him of insinuating that he is a pervert to his children. The grandfather attempts to deny this and the 41yo strikes him and they fight. Is it still the grandfather's fault because he couldn't avoid the altercation? How about if the grandfather told the kids to get out of the pool and away from that pervert (liberal interp) and tried to leave, when the 41 yo stepped in front of him and started shouting. Gramps tries to step around him when he is suddenly punched in the face or shoved. He tries to escape, shouting his protest and attempting to call the police. The guy grabs his phone and runs, leaping over the fence. Gramps, trying to get his phone back, jumps after him but can't catch him. Is it still Gramp's fault? Perhaps if he wouldn't have removed the children from the pool and thereby embarrassing the gentleman, he could have avoided the altercation?

The facts are that John Gagnon had been arrested on at least two previous occasions for assault and drug related charges. I'm sure these were not his fault.

The article that I read, suggested that gramps told his grandkid to leave the pool and asked Gagnon why he was talking to the kids. Gagnon gave him a smart a** response and told gramps to come get a piece of him. Then he struck gramps in the face. Although, I could see how gramps could have gotten "livid" even if the article did not suggest that. I didn't see in the article where gagnon was accused of anything, but just asked why he was talking to the children. Perhaps, he was on drugs or intoxicated and that sent off alarms in gramps. Who knows, but I wouldn't automatically assume that gramps caused the problem. It appears by gagnon's back ground criminal violations, that he is not the paragon of civility.

Hero is loosely defined as one with courage and honor. It takes courage to stand up for what you think is right, and against one much younger than you.

Could this have been avoided. No doubt. Does it take two to dance, yep. I still applaud Grandpa for his courage and honor. Until someone shows me where he was out of line, I'll stick to that.

[TheVillageChicken]

Somebody's slacking. We are 137 posts into this thread and no one has thrown out the ubiquitous "Granddad might be in the early stages of dementia" theory.

[outlaw]

Maybe the young guy asked the kids to quiet down and quit screaming, or go down to the other end of the pool and leave him alone. This probably woke grandpa up from his nap, and upset him that anyone would think his grandchildren were anything but perfect little angels. The young guy may have told grandpa that the kids were making too much noise, which sent grandpa into a hissy fit. The young guy, seeing that grandpa was angrily moving toward him, decided in a split second to defend himself by throwing a punch just as grandpa was bringing his arm up to throw his own hay maker. It may have been a case of a younger quicker man beating an older slower man to the punch. In all the excitement, the traumatized young man grabbed what he thought was his phone (they all pretty much look alike), and decided to get out of there before grandpa got up and fetched a firearm that was in a bag over by the chair where he was sleeping. At any rate, it looks like it could have just been a misunderstanding that grandpa escalated because he's p!ssed off that the MMPs are going to be striped and the tree killers are not going to have to serve any prison time.

[MDLNB]

Originally Posted by outlaw

Maybe the young guy asked the kids to quiet down and quit screaming, or go down to the other end of the pool and leave him alone. This probably woke grandpa up from his nap, and upset him that anyone would think his grandchildren were anything but perfect little angels. The young guy may have told grandpa that the kids were making too much noise, which sent grandpa into a hissy fit. The young guy, seeing that grandpa was angrily moving toward him, decided in a split second to defend himself by throwing a punch just as grandpa was bringing his arm up to throw his own hay maker. It may have been a case of a younger quicker man beating an older slower man to the punch. In all the excitement, the traumatized young man grabbed what he thought was his phone (they all pretty much look alike), and decided to get out of there before grandpa got up and fetched a firearm that was in a bag over by the chair where he was sleeping. At any rate, it looks like it could have just been a misunderstanding that grandpa escalated because he's p!ssed off that the MMPs are going to be striped and the tree killers are not going to have to serve any prison time.

[Bogie Shooter]

Originally Posted by Bonny

I totally agree ! There's a lot to this we don't know and we probably will never know the whole story. Everything here is pretty much speculation

Contact the people with a lot of posts on the tree cutting thread.......they will get you the whole story.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by redwitch

I think Tal got some of his ideas from one of my posts. If you read all of the posts, someone said that they had heard a lot of shouting and cursing as they drove by in their golf cart. From what I could gather, it was at least two parties yelling at each other.

Personally, if someone were to accuse me of something nefarious because I was talking to some kids, I would try to explain my innocence and assure whomever no harm was meant. If I was the grandparent feeling my grandson was in danger, I'm not sure I would really hear what was being said. I can easily see this turning into a serious confrontation. i don't know the facts, but I sincerely doubt the grandfather was entirely innocent in this whole mess. I think it probably could have been handled better by both of these men. And why should someone have to leave a pool if doing nothing wrong just because someone else perceives wrongdoing?

Thanks. My assumptions about the grandfather are from the information that no sexual advances on a minor charges are anywhere suggested as having been placed against the man who hit the grandfather. The articles I have read suggest that the grandfather was protecting the kids from unwanted attentions of the 41 year old.

And I do not see challenging a younger man as something heroic unless a physical confrontation is in your mindset to begin with.

The heroic thing have been to get the kids out of the pool as soon as possible, find out what the man had actually said to the kids, and then call 9/11 if there was anything criminal in a man getting too close to young children in a pool. Talk to witnesses too in order to see if they heard anything criminal in comments made to the kids. Again, I am also assuming that the Sumter County Sheriff's Office did their professional duty and actually investigated what happened and when at that pool.

[Bonny]

Originally Posted by outlaw

Maybe the young guy asked the kids to quiet down and quit screaming, or go down to the other end of the pool and leave him alone. This probably woke grandpa up from his nap, and upset him that anyone would think his grandchildren were anything but perfect little angels. The young guy may have told grandpa that the kids were making too much noise, which sent grandpa into a hissy fit. The young guy, seeing that grandpa was angrily moving toward him, decided in a split second to defend himself by throwing a punch just as grandpa was bringing his arm up to throw his own hay maker. It may have been a case of a younger quicker man beating an older slower man to the punch. In all the excitement, the traumatized young man grabbed what he thought was his phone (they all pretty much look alike), and decided to get out of there before grandpa got up and fetched a firearm that was in a bag over by the chair where he was sleeping. At any rate, it looks like it could have just been a misunderstanding that grandpa escalated because he's p!ssed off that the MMPs are going to be striped and the tree killers are not going to have to serve any prison time.

[Bonny]

Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter

Contact the people with a lot of posts on the tree cutting thread.......they will get you the whole story.

[MDLNB]

Yes, we all know that old folks are always cranky and get angry at the least provoking. That's why they hang out at the pool, to soak their aching bones and bunions. We can all sympathize with a younger guy that is probably detoxing from his drug habit and trying to ease his lonely, misunderstood feelings by chatting with three young people. People that are young enough not to misinterpret his scrungy appearance and blood shot eyes. Too bad that old hard case had to interrupt him while he was in his peaceful zone. He hardly even hit the old guy, and only took his cell phone because his own had a dead battery. He was just going to call the police for protection against the demented old guy that was shouting and screaming at him about.. what??? What's this about his pants hanging too low? What??? What children? Were there children in the pool? Put your teeth in when you are hollering at me, you old fool! I don't understand anything you are shouting about. This guy is going to have a coronary if I don't leave real fast. Yep, I am saving his life by running away. I'll call for a medic with his phone. There's the police now. I'll just wave them over and give them directions to where the old fool is located. They'll know how to help him until the medics get there. What?? Why are you handcuffing me? You don't understand, I was just minding my own business. I wasn't bothering anyone. I just want to help the old guy. I am a good Samaritan.

[redwitch]

MDL, not going to copy your response (too long and too much of a pain to edit it on iPad) but do want to respond to a couple of points. I don't see anyone saying the younger guy is innocent. In fact, I think most of us firmly believe arresting him for striking the grandfather and for the theft of the phone was the right course of action. I think we're saying the grandfather may well have escalated the whole thing. I don't see his actions as heroic nor do I see them as villainous. I see them as perfectly human. Humans have a tendency to overreact. We say and do many wrong things when our adrenaline is flowing. I do believe both men probably overreacted. Our justice system will have to sort this out.

[Bonny]

Originally Posted by redwitch

MDL, not going to copy your response (too long and too much of a pain to edit it on iPad) but do want to respond to a couple of points. I don't see anyone saying the younger guy is innocent. In fact, I think most of us firmly believe arresting him for striking the grandfather and for the theft of the phone was the right course of action. I think we're saying the grandfather may well have escalated the whole thing. I don't see his actions as heroic nor do I see them as villainous. I see them as perfectly human. Humans have a tendency to overreact. We say and do many wrong things when our adrenaline is flowing. I do believe both men probably overreacted. Our justice system will have to sort this out.

[Greg Nelson]

you're a master of your words..until you speak them

[outlaw]

Originally Posted by redwitch

MDL, not going to copy your response (too long and too much of a pain to edit it on iPad) but do want to respond to a couple of points. I don't see anyone saying the younger guy is innocent. In fact, I think most of us firmly believe arresting him for striking the grandfather and for the theft of the phone was the right course of action. I think we're saying the grandfather may well have escalated the whole thing. I don't see his actions as heroic nor do I see them as villainous. I see them as perfectly human. Humans have a tendency to overreact. We say and do many wrong things when our adrenaline is flowing. I do believe both men probably overreacted. Our justice system will have to sort this out.

Uh, MDL was kidding.....