[Warren Kiefer]

I am becoming more upset with each passing year. When I moved to the Villages, Harold Schwartz was still alive and I had the wonderful privilege of discussing with him, his vision for the Villages community. Basically, Harold wanted the Villages to be a place where persons could enjoy retirement to the absolute fullest and at a very reasonable cost. I truly believe Harold had no desire to become wealthy and money to him was just a way to provide greater enjoyment to the residents. Sadly, I think Harolds's vision has gotten lost somewhere along the way. I just picked up the Country Club Golf Rates , I see the Country Club green fees have increased again this year. For a resident, the 18 hole high season rates now start at $41.00 (Orange Blossom Hills) and top out at $57.00 (Palmer Legends). It can be easily determined that generally, the MOST EXPENSIVE greens fees are right here in the VILLAGES ..and this is if you provide your own golf cart. Please don't respond by telling me how much you were paying for golf in Maine or California, it simply isn't relevant. For example, We would all scream at paying $8.00 for a dozen eggs, and yet that is what people in Alaska pay for eggs.

[Bogie Shooter]

Originally Posted by Warren Kiefer

I am becoming more upset with each passing year. When I moved to the Villages, Harold Schwartz was still alive and I had the wonderful privilege of discussing with him, his vision for the Villages community. Basically, Harold wanted the Villages to be a place where persons could enjoy retirement to the absolute fullest and at a very reasonable cost. I truly believe Harold had no desire to become wealthy and money to him was just a way to provide greater enjoyment to the residents. Sadly, I think Harolds's vision has gotten lost somewhere along the way. I just picked up the Country Club Golf Rates , I see the Country Club green fees have increased again this year. For a resident, the 18 hole high season rates now start at $41.00 (Orange Blossom Hills) and top out at $57.00 (Palmer Legends). It can be easily determined that generally, the MOST EXPENSIVE greens fees are right here in the VILLAGES ..and this is if you provide your own golf cart. Please don't respond by telling me how much you were paying for golf in Maine or California, it simply isn't relevant. For example, We would all scream at paying $8.00 for a dozen eggs, and yet that is what people in Alaska pay for eggs.

I agree the rates are high, but what do you think they would be if Harold was calling the shots?

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter

I agree the rates are high, but what do you think they would be if Harold was calling the shots?

"Free golf for life!"

Skip

[gomoho]

Warren - I believe that is a very astute observation. I have been in TV for less than a year and already see the rise in housing costs are pricing some folks out of the market. But this is not a non-profit organization and they will, and have every right to do so, get as many bucks for whatever the market will bear. That is a fact of life today and guess we should be glad Harold didn't hang around long enough to see it!

[ijusluvit]

Originally Posted by Warren Kiefer

I am becoming more upset with each passing year. When I moved to the Villages, Harold Schwartz was still alive and I had the wonderful privilege of discussing with him, his vision for the Villages community. Basically, Harold wanted the Villages to be a place where persons could enjoy retirement to the absolute fullest and at a very reasonable cost. I truly believe Harold had no desire to become wealthy and money to him was just a way to provide greater enjoyment to the residents. Sadly, I think Harolds's vision has gotten lost somewhere along the way. I just picked up the Country Club Golf Rates , I see the Country Club green fees have increased again this year. For a resident, the 18 hole high season rates now start at $41.00 (Orange Blossom Hills) and top out at $57.00 (Palmer Legends). It can be easily determined that generally, the MOST EXPENSIVE greens fees are right here in the VILLAGES ..and this is if you provide your own golf cart. Please don't respond by telling me how much you were paying for golf in Maine or California, it simply isn't relevant. For example, We would all scream at paying $8.00 for a dozen eggs, and yet that is what people in Alaska pay for eggs.

Sorry you're upset, but let's be realistic here. Harold did have a desire to do well financially, and he knew he'd have to do well to pay for the original infrastructure, which included the golf cart bridge, Spanish Springs and the first three Villages. I don't know how he convinced himself he could stay afloat until he could really start selling houses. I don't know how he convinced contractors like Rainey to do serious work with deferred pay. I don't know how he convinced his son Gary to leave successful business dealings in Michigan and join him, bringing the rest of the family along as well. My wild guess was that everyone thought there was a good chance they would make a good profit. Yes, most of the original Villages have more modest "middle class" homes, but very soon the buying customers came wanting more. I'm convinced that Harold Swartz would have been the last person to deny people the bigger, fancier homes they said they wanted.

To this day, The Villages is still affordable to most of the retired middle class. It is more pricey than many other middle class retirement communities, but the lifestyle is superior as well. I'll bet that's why you moved here.

You're right, it's about $5 more to play primetime golf here compared to similar quality courses in the area. We benefit from that situation because the outside courses have to undersell TV courses. But I don't know ANY place in the country where you can play a Villages quality course during primetime for less than the prices in our area. Prices here have crept up regularly, but costs have as well. The bottom line is that those changes are in line with what has happened throughout the country in the last ten years. None of us like to pay a little more for the things we buy, but look what we've been able to buy!

[mulligan]

I think what you are seeing is simply a response to the market. Where a lot of the original villages south of 441 appealed to people looking for small ranches and villas, there are enough people with substantially more money that realize how great the concept is, and the developer is responding with more large designers and premiere homes.

[skyc6]

Originally Posted by ijusluvit

Sorry you're upset, but let's be realistic here. Harold did have a desire to do well financially, and he knew he'd have to do well to pay for the original infrastructure, which included the golf cart bridge, Spanish Springs and the first three Villages. I don't know how he convinced himself he could stay afloat until he could really start selling houses. I don't know how he convinced contractors like Rainey to do serious work with deferred pay. I don't know how he convinced his son Gary to leave successful business dealings in Michigan and join him, bringing the rest of the family along as well. My wild guess was that everyone thought there was a good chance they would make a good profit. Yes, most of the original Villages have more modest "middle class" homes, but very soon the buying customers came wanting more. I'm convinced that Harold Swartz would have been the last person to deny people the bigger, fancier homes they said they wanted.

To this day, The Villages is still affordable to most of the retired middle class. It is more pricey than many other middle class retirement communities, but the lifestyle is superior as well. I'll bet that's why you moved here.

You're right, it's about $5 more to play primetime golf here compared to similar quality courses in the area. We benefit from that situation because the outside courses have to undersell TV courses. But I don't know ANY place in the country where you can play a Villages quality course during primetime for less than the prices in our area. Prices here have crept up regularly, but costs have as well. The bottom line is that those changes are in line with what has happened throughout the country in the last ten years. None of us like to pay a little more for the things we buy, but look what we've been able to buy!

Good answer!

[janmcn]

Harold Schwartz's vision was to build a hometown with everything a retiree could want in that town, and his son, Gary Morse, helped him realize that dream.

Look at the town he created where you have a town square, churches, bowling alleys, recreation centers, country clubs, golf courses, a hospital, softball fields, a woodworking shop, RV parking, several grocery stores, drug stores, furniture stores, many restaurants...just about everything you can think of.

Compare that with what the younger generation is building today which is houses and more houses, with golf, country clubs, recreation centers, and basic infrastructure and not much more.

The people that are paying the most money for houses and lots are getting the least, IMO.

[BarryRX]

Originally Posted by Warren Kiefer

I am becoming more upset with each passing year. When I moved to the Villages, Harold Schwartz was still alive and I had the wonderful privilege of discussing with him, his vision for the Villages community. Basically, Harold wanted the Villages to be a place where persons could enjoy retirement to the absolute fullest and at a very reasonable cost. I truly believe Harold had no desire to become wealthy and money to him was just a way to provide greater enjoyment to the residents. Sadly, I think Harolds's vision has gotten lost somewhere along the way. I just picked up the Country Club Golf Rates , I see the Country Club green fees have increased again this year. For a resident, the 18 hole high season rates now start at $41.00 (Orange Blossom Hills) and top out at $57.00 (Palmer Legends). It can be easily determined that generally, the MOST EXPENSIVE greens fees are right here in the VILLAGES ..and this is if you provide your own golf cart. Please don't respond by telling me how much you were paying for golf in Maine or California, it simply isn't relevant. For example, We would all scream at paying $8.00 for a dozen eggs, and yet that is what people in Alaska pay for eggs.

I love this place, I truly do. But I don't believe we are getting quality golf for the price. I play a lot of golf, and play most of it right here. For most of the busy season the championship courses are collecting about $180.00 every 15 minutes, or $720 an hour. Multiply that by 10 courses and that's $7200.00 an hour. Yet, I spend most of my time hitting irons or chipping from hard pan due to the lack of grass. The greens have been in fair to poor condition. Now, all that being said, it really is supply and demand. Even with the conditions I've described, the courses are operating at max capacity. I also readily admit that my expertise does not include knowledge of the costs to run a golf course. Maybe when you have about a zillion people walking all over your golf course every day that its a miracle that they keep the courses as good as they do.

[Warren Kiefer]

Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter

I agree the rates are high, but what do you think they would be if Harold was calling the shots?

Well, I was paying $12.00 at TDS in 1997 for 18 holes. I recall Harold using the term "play golf for $1.00 per hole.

[pooh]

Originally Posted by Warren Kiefer

Well, I was paying $12.00 at TDS in 1997 for 18 holes. I recall Harold using the term "play golf for $1.00 per hole.

That was 16 years ago, Warren...alas, prices for everything have gone up quite a bit since then.

[redwitch]

Warren, I think you have some valid points. I do believe that some of the fees and practices that Mark Morse has implemented would seriously upset and anger Mr. Schwartz. There does seem to be less "bang for the buck." There is a tremendous of nickel and diming of residents, especially new residents.

Businesses have a hard time succeeding in the town squares -- the developer's rent makes it very hard for them to make a profit. More and more of the services previously offered by the developer are now being run by former employees and not for the better (think of the Squares' entertainment). For now, Brownwood has little that isn't TV-owned. LSL started with a lot of businesses jumping to be part of the grand opening.

I agree that Harold Schwartz's original vision (from what I understand it was) has gone by the wayside for the sake of profit. When I first moved here, not every club had a fee to join; classes were much cheaper; and so on and so forth.

I've talked to residents who moved here when Mr. Schwartz was still alive and wandering around Orange Blossom and Silver Springs. I've spoken with others who moved here shortly after he died. If something happened that they couldn't close in time, TV would extend closing date; the interest rates weren't .25% higher than surrounding banks; Neighborhood Watch would check your home for you free if you went out of town; and so on and so forth. It really does sound a different attitude has taken over.

I do believe that Harold Schwartz wanted to make a profit (heck, he'd gone bankrupt twice trying to do this) and I'm positive that Gary Morse would never have moved here had he not thought a reasonable profit could be made. But I'm not convinced that this level of profit-making (or the means used to get there) was ever considered by either of them.

[Warren Kiefer]

Originally Posted by ijusluvit

Sorry you're upset, but let's be realistic here. Harold did have a desire to do well financially, and he knew he'd have to do well to pay for the original infrastructure, which included the golf cart bridge, Spanish Springs and the first three Villages. I don't know how he convinced himself he could stay afloat until he could really start selling houses. I don't know how he convinced contractors like Rainey to do serious work with deferred pay. I don't know how he convinced his son Gary to leave successful business dealings in Michigan and join him, bringing the rest of the family along as well. My wild guess was that everyone thought there was a good chance they would make a good profit. Yes, most of the original Villages have more modest "middle class" homes, but very soon the buying customers came wanting more. I'm convinced that Harold Swartz would have been the last person to deny people the bigger, fancier homes they said they wanted.

To this day, The Villages is still affordable to most of the retired middle class. It is more pricey than many other middle class retirement communities, but the lifestyle is superior as well. I'll bet that's why you moved here.

You're right, it's about $5 more to play primetime golf here compared to similar quality courses in the area. We benefit from that situation because the outside courses have to undersell TV courses. But I don't know ANY place in the country where you can play a Villages quality course during primetime for less than the prices in our area. Prices here have crept up regularly, but costs have as well. The bottom line is that those changes are in line with what has happened throughout the country in the last ten years. None of us like to pay a little more for the things we buy, but look what we've been able to buy!

Needing to Undersell the Villages isn't valid unless you only use examples near the Villages. My research was mainly within a 25 mile radius, but you will find courses all the way to Sebring that cost less than the Villages and these courses certainly do not compete with the Villages courses. Also by using the CDD regulations, the Developer was able to build most of the infastructure without using his funds. This is where the seling of bonds came into play. I also remember Harold Schwartz saying that the Villages would be like a big family. I wish some of my family members would treat me a little better.

ijustluvit, you write a well thought thru post and and I appreciate and respect those thoughts. I am going to guess that you are a very nice person.

[Bogie Shooter]

Originally Posted by Warren Kiefer

Well, I was paying $12.00 at TDS in 1997 for 18 holes. I recall Harold using the term "play golf for $1.00 per hole.

Golf for $1 hole, bread for $.40 a loaf. Sorry everything has gone up. I doubt the courses could be maintained with revenue of $12 a round.
The horse and buggy were put away in the barn a long time ago!

[njbchbum]

warren - how much do you think you should be paying? and do you think that amount paid by you and all of the other golfers would be sufficient to support the maintenance and management of the golf course and pro shop year round as well as provide a reasonable profit to the developer? or maybe you don't care about that...hard to tell.