[buggyone]

Originally Posted by lovsthosebigdogs

I feel for everyone who has to deal with a barking dog issue. I had Great Pyrenees for almost 39 years of my life. They are barkers. Like the Tibetan Mastiffs spoken about it has to do with what they were bred to do. Pyrs were bred to stay up on the mountains of France, alone, and guard sheep from predators and their first line of defense was barking, not attacking. So pyrs bark all the time to say, "Hey, I'm here so stay away." A pyrs bark can be heard for a mile. And that include through the house walls. When my pyrs barked neighbors could hear it inside their house even if the dogs were inside my house. We had neighbors complaining on occasion, but most of my dogs were pretty reasonable and I could train them to not bark ALL the time. My last pyr, however, barked nonstop. We used a citronella collar first- he emptied expensive cartridge after cartridge. So we moved up to shock collar. He'd get shocked, wince, get shocked again, wince again etc. So we gave it up because he never stopped
barking with it. This is a dog who was a therapy dog and very well trained in all other areas. He felt he had a job to do and with pyr determination, he was going to do it. He couldn't be stopped and he was a huge problem. I live on an acre and all my neighbors have an acre also but they could hear him from inside my house to inside theirs. The police came repeatedly and threatened us. We tried a trainer who had no luck. We tried more exercise. Nothing helped. What should we do? Give him back to the breeder? Give him to the shelter? Put him down? We loved this big, noisy boy and it's not like I didn't have many years experience with the breed and it's not like he wasn't great in all other ways and an excellent Therapy Dog and Ambassador at public events. He just had a big mouth. We were pushed to the edge and had to make a choice. We loved him enough to choose debarking. It cost us $2000 and we did it out of love and wanting to keep our dog. The results were that he was still loud enough to be head if we were living in a situation like TV, but living on an acre it was fine. And that's why we won't have any more pyrs. Can't take the chance on having a nuisance barker. He never knew he was debarked and he continued to go through the motions, but it allowed us to keep him until he passed at 12 1/2. I was NEVER sorry I did it as a final resort and I won't apologize for it.

Absolutely non-forgivable!

If your baby cried, would you cut their vocal cords?

One more that should be put in prison for animal cruelty as well as your vet.

One more for the IGNORE list.

[capecodbob]

If you have no results with the authorities and none with the owners I'd consult a lawyer. If the offending owners are causing you loss of income because of their dogs, they should be made to pay for loss of rental income and other damages too!
Just the threat of a lawsuit might just get the dog owner's attention and some results.
Like someone said earlier, most owners are very responsible but a few are not.

[TheVillageChicken]

Originally Posted by buggyone

Absolutely non-forgivable!

If your baby cried, would you cut their vocal cords?

One more that should be put in prison for animal cruelty as well as your vet.

One more for the IGNORE list.

But I suppose it is OK to take their testicles.

[gerryann]

Originally Posted by buggyone

Absolutely non-forgivable!

If your baby cried, would you cut their vocal cords?

One more that should be put in prison for animal cruelty as well as your vet.

One more for the IGNORE list.

You just don't get it.

[SantaClaus]

Contrary to popular belief, I'm just a dude, and dudes can only take so much before they lash back.

[angel222]

Before I moved to TV I lived in a townhouse community in the "no dog" section of that community....We didn't have a dog at the time so We never gave it a second thought. After my husband passed away, a well meaning friend brought me a Yorkiepoo puppy. I was told by the board that the only way I could keep the dog and live in this section was to make sure the dog didn't bark to disturb neighbors (the board was sympathetic of my loss)...desperate not to lose my new friend and not to have to move I took the advice of a vet and got a water bottle. Each time the puppy barked you spray their face with the water and sharply say "NO". It only took a few weeks and she knew not to bark....even when I went to work! She CAN bark but doesn't and she will growl if she hears anyone around the house in the middle of the night to let me know. I really don't have her as a guard dog but as a furry friend. Now she's 10 years old and a total delight....everybody loves her! I realize this method probably can only be used for a puppy but I thought I'd put it out there...a lot more humane than cutting vocal cords IMHO!

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by lovsthosebigdogs

I feel for everyone who has to deal with a barking dog issue. I had Great Pyrenees for almost 39 years of my life. They are barkers. Like the Tibetan Mastiffs spoken about it has to do with what they were bred to do. Pyrs were bred to stay up on the mountains of France, alone, and guard sheep from predators and their first line of defense was barking, not attacking. So pyrs bark all the time to say, "Hey, I'm here so stay away." A pyrs bark can be heard for a mile. And that include through the house walls. When my pyrs barked neighbors could hear it inside their house even if the dogs were inside my house. We had neighbors complaining on occasion, but most of my dogs were pretty reasonable and I could train them to not bark ALL the time. My last pyr, however, barked nonstop. We used a citronella collar first- he emptied expensive cartridge after cartridge. So we moved up to shock collar. He'd get shocked, wince, get shocked again, wince again etc. So we gave it up because he never stopped
barking with it. This is a dog who was a therapy dog and very well trained in all other areas. He felt he had a job to do and with pyr determination, he was going to do it. He couldn't be stopped and he was a huge problem. I live on an acre and all my neighbors have an acre also but they could hear him from inside my house to inside theirs. The police came repeatedly and threatened us. We tried a trainer who had no luck. We tried more exercise. Nothing helped. What should we do? Give him back to the breeder? Give him to the shelter? Put him down? We loved this big, noisy boy and it's not like I didn't have many years experience with the breed and it's not like he wasn't great in all other ways and an excellent Therapy Dog and Ambassador at public events. He just had a big mouth. We were pushed to the edge and had to make a choice. We loved him enough to choose debarking. It cost us $2000 and we did it out of love and wanting to keep our dog. The results were that he was still loud enough to be head if we were living in a situation like TV, but living on an acre it was fine. And that's why we won't have any more pyrs. Can't take the chance on having a nuisance barker. He never knew he was debarked and he continued to go through the motions, but it allowed us to keep him until he passed at 12 1/2. I was NEVER sorry I did it as a final resort and I won't apologize for it.

Originally Posted by buggyone

Absolutely non-forgivable!

If your baby cried, would you cut their vocal cords?

One more that should be put in prison for animal cruelty as well as your vet.

One more for the IGNORE list.

I have to go with lovsthosebigdogs, Buggy. I don't think you can equate a crying human with a barking dog. I happen to know that LovsTBD is a very responsible, experienced dog owner who is perceptive about her dogs and a talented dog handler. She has had many dogs, both rescued and from a breeder. I also know that her Pyr was the essence of what they were bred for. Some of the characteristics of some breeds become muted down through the generations, but sometimes a kickback to the true initial breed comes through.

If I had to choose between giving up a beloved dog to an uncertain fate because of an unfortunate trait and a means to correct the problem without causing mental damage to the dog, I would choose the latter.

Off topic: the sweetest little dog showed up in our backyard today. Wish I could have kept him. He had a tag on him with his name and phone number, and we were able to reunite him with his owner with one phone call. And Duh, our dog has no such tag. He's microchipped, but no tag. Going to fix that tomorrow.

[Barefoot]

Originally Posted by CFrance

...... our dog has no such tag. He's microchipped, but no tag. Going to fix that tomorrow.

Re dog ID tags, I received an interesting suggestion from a guy at the dog park. He told me he gets a two-sided dog tag for his dog. On one side, he puts his residence and cell numbers. On the other side, he puts "Reward $500".

Obviously it's not an idea that all dog owners would like. I've used it on tags for each of our dogs. I figure that a large reward is an excellent incentive for the finder to call the owner rather than keeping the dog, dropping a lost dog at a Humane Society, or turning it out on the street.

P.S. Sorry for the hijack.

[Bonanza]

Originally Posted by SantaClaus

Wow, seriously? This is very common and the dogs were as happy as ever. Seriously, neutering is way "crueler". Even the ASPCA fight efforts to make the procedure illegal.

I don't know where you get your information, but neutering is NOT cruel.
It is much more kind to neuter than not.
It reduces the chance of pets getting cancer and
definitely reduces the number of unwanted pets and overpopulation.
They are just a couple of reasons for neutering among many others.

Removing a dog's vocal cocrds is not common and most vets will not do it.
Once again, I don't know where you get your information.
That is tantamount to cruel and unusual treatment for the benefit
of the owners who probably shouldn't have a dog.

If someone wants a mostly "barkless" dog, they should get a basenji.

[Bonanza]

Originally Posted by TheVillageChicken

But I suppose it is OK to take their testicles.

Yes, it is okay to castrate/neuter a male dog.
Not only is it okay,
it's advisable by humane groups and veterinarians.

[SantaClaus]

Ok, I'm gonna take one more swing at this then I'm out. First, my point about comparing neutering is that one leaves the dog as healthy and happy as ever with essentially no change to his behavior, the other changes the dogs physiology, leaves him prone to obesity (and the host of risks associated) and has a dramatic effect on his behavior. I'll let you guess which is which.

About the acceptance of debarking from Wikipedia:

Multiple animal medicine and animal welfare organizations discourage the use of convenience devocalization, recommending that it only be used as a last resort. However, organizations such as the American Veterinary Medical Association, American Animal Hospital Association and the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, oppose laws that would make devocalization illegal.

So even the humane societies want debarking as an option, they just don't want it to be a matter of convenience: "hey doc, while he's out for the neutering why don't we go ahead and dock his tail and ears and debark him, too." I think every one would agree that this should be a last resort.

[lovsthosebigdogs]

Removing a dog's vocal cocrds is not common and most vets will not do it.
Once again, I don't know where you get your information.
That is tantamount to cruel and unusual treatment for the benefit
of the owners who probably shouldn't have a dog.

If someone wants a mostly "barkless" dog, they should get a basenji.[/CENTER][/FONT][/B][/QUOTE]

I have known many basenji's and they are not silent. While it is true that they don't have an actual 'bark', they do make a loud sound which is a yodel or what sounds to my ears like a screech. They are lovely dogs however. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOR5DUFmRjY]Lucy the Basenji Howls & Yodels - YouTube[/ame]
Thank you CFrance for your kind words. I could have chosen not to post my debarking here on TOTV and no one would have ever known, and I knew there would be a backlash for it. I thought that perhaps I could help some of you understand that it was an action of last resort from an experienced, responsible, loving dog owner who had a very wonderful but noisy dog and an owner who had tried everything over the years to correct this problem and failed. I guess if I had posted that I euthanized my dog because of it or gave him to a shelter because of it I would have been applauded. Instead I enabled him to lead a very enriched long life afterwards in a loving home, despite what some of you believe.

[Barefoot]

Originally Posted by lovsthosebigdogs

I could have chosen not to post my debarking here on TOTV and no one would have ever known, and I knew there would be a backlash for it. I thought that perhaps I could help some of you understand that it was an action of last resort from an experienced, responsible, loving dog owner who had a very wonderful but noisy dog and an owner who had tried everything over the years to correct this problem and failed. .... I enabled him to lead a very enriched long life afterwards in a loving home, despite what some of you believe.

Roz, I know that you are an experienced and loving dog owner.
I completely understand that debarking is a last resort.
The very thought of debarking is offensive and makes me cringe.
But when I think of the options, I can certainly understand that debarking may be a more
humane option than euthanizing the dog or trying to beat or shock the dog into submission.

[Bonanza]

Originally Posted by lovsthosebigdogs

Removing a dog's vocal cocrds is not common and most vets will not do it.
Once again, I don't know where you get your information.
That is tantamount to cruel and unusual treatment for the benefit
of the owners who probably shouldn't have a dog.

If someone wants a mostly "barkless" dog, they should get a basenji.[/CENTER][/FONT][/B]

I have known many basenji's and they are not silent. While it is true that they don't have an actual 'bark', they do make a loud sound which is a yodel or what sounds to my ears like a screech. They are lovely dogs however. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOR5DUFmRjY]Lucy the Basenji Howls & Yodels - YouTube[/ame]
Thank you CFrance for your kind words. I could have chosen not to post my debarking here on TOTV and no one would have ever known, and I knew there would be a backlash for it. I thought that perhaps I could help some of you understand that it was an action of last resort from an experienced, responsible, loving dog owner who had a very wonderful but noisy dog and an owner who had tried everything over the years to correct this problem and failed. I guess if I had posted that I euthanized my dog because of it or gave him to a shelter because of it I would have been applauded. Instead I enabled him to lead a very enriched long life afterwards in a loving home, despite what some of you believe.[/QUOTE]

I know from reading many of your previous posts,
you are a loving and responsible dog owner.
Yes -- I truly believe that.

I just think to myself that there are better solutions
to cutting a dog's vocal cord.
My initial first thought would be a bark collar or a personal dog trainer.
I realaize that there isn't always a right answer to all problems,
but I cringe when I think of having that procedure done
in addition to the expense.

Yes, I know Basenjis do make a noise as opposed to a bark.
Alas! Unfortunately, isn't always a solution to every problem.

[kittygilchrist]

I knew someone with a dog that had been debarked. He just wasn't right after that.