[tucson]

Yes, pls keep the thread going, I find out more here than The Daily Sun..

[jimbo2012]

I think this issue has a long time to work its way thru the process of options for them.

But assuming for a moment the ruling stands what does it it mean in $$ to each homeowner here?

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by Advogado

None of the quotes that you cite is attributable to me, and I am not sure why you imply that they are-- but they are part of free speech and, if you don't like them, you are free to ignore them. Members of TOV, I presume, are intelligent enough to discern what posts they want to believe and which ones they want to discount.

Furthermore, you may wish to correct your statement that this "the issue is between the developer and the IRS". That is, unfortunately, not the case. If it were, it wouldn't be of great concern to the residents.

Instead, the issue, right now, is between the IRS and the Center Districts (controlled by the Developer). Those Center Districts own a good chunk of our amenity facilities and need to be able to financially continue to furnish our amenity services to us. Please read the 2009 POA Bulletin article on the subject for a better understanding of the matter.

I do not think I "quoted" anyone in my post and was simply showing where this thread was going. I certainly made no criticism of you or any organization.

I would not use information gained this way (message board) as any basis to make a decision on any legal matter, and this one is and will be complicated.

My thoughts were actually for non residents who may wish to settle here and there are many who read here for info, but my opinion is that this much to complicated to use this medium which is getting bogged down in other things, and bias to serve any value.

I am sorry you took my opinion as a criticism of you or any group....if you did that, imagine what folks looking in here might think.

[rubicon]

I believe the thread should continue. However those responding need to be cool headed. Secondly it does not help for posters to suggest subjective criteria sch as a cause suggesting residents have something against the Developer. Nor should time be wasted attacking the IRS. The fact remains that the pivotal issue is the definition of a political subdivision and does that accounting rule have application to the 2003 bond Issuance

The main focus here is not about the Developer, VCCDD, the POA, etc but about the residents and their stake/concerns in this dog fight.

Most following this thread know the subject matter. We need to stop rehashing it. The stated problem is the IRS ruled against and would do we do if all appeals, etc fail.

We cannot control what the lawyers do in defending the Developer and the Districts and we certainly at this stage of the game have no say in the matter.

The POA has followed this situation and issued information to its members. However as watchdogs for residents what have they done to protect our interests?

Here are my questions: If the IRS prevails what is the likely outcome? How will this affect our lives? Since the source of income is solely from our amenities does that mean an increase in amenity fees or a reduction in services should the District suffer the tax penalty?
How will the future financing of the build out proceed?

what can residents do to at least have some answers available should the worse occur?

But the biggest issue is that the reason we have all of these questions is no one has stepped up to say that if the worse occurs it will not monetarily affect resident. and before anyone suggest that no one knows then i would counter with then let us know what you already know as you have progressed in your fight against the IRS because surely you have laid out the possible scenarios both if you win and if you lose as to the financial implication and the sources of income to remedy a potential tax penalty and whom it will fall upon. Residents can face the realities and have them embrace them or ignore realityand have it work against them

[Advogado]

Originally Posted by rubicon

I believe the thread should continue. However those responding need to be cool headed. Secondly it does not help for posters to suggest subjective criteria sch as a cause suggesting residents have something against the Developer. Nor should time be wasted attacking the IRS. The fact remains that the pivotal issue is the definition of a political subdivision and does that accounting rule have application to the 2003 bond Issuance

The main focus here is not about the Developer, VCCDD, the POA, etc but about the residents and their stake/concerns in this dog fight.

Most following this thread know the subject matter. We need to stop rehashing it. The stated problem is the IRS ruled against and would do we do if all appeals, etc fail.

We cannot control what the lawyers do in defending the Developer and the Districts and we certainly at this stage of the game have no say in the matter.

The POA has followed this situation and issued information to its members. However as watchdogs for residents what have they done to protect our interests?

Here are my questions: If the IRS prevails what is the likely outcome? How will this affect our lives? Since the source of income is solely from our amenities does that mean an increase in amenity fees or a reduction in services should the District suffer the tax penalty?
How will the future financing of the build out proceed?

what can residents do to at least have some answers available should the worse occur?

But the biggest issue is that the reason we have all of these questions is no one has stepped up to say that if the worse occurs it will not monetarily affect resident. and before anyone suggest that no one knows then i would counter with then let us know what you already know as you have progressed in your fight against the IRS because surely you have laid out the possible scenarios both if you win and if you lose as to the financial implication and the sources of income to remedy a potential tax penalty and whom it will fall upon. Residents can face the realities and have them embrace them or ignore realityand have it work against them

In regard to your last point, it would be comforting if the Developer would issue a formal statement reassuring residents that everything will continue, no matter what the outcome. However, in the over 5 years that the investigation has continued, the Developer has not done so. The Developer has, instead, obscured or misrepresented the facts, via non-coverage or misleading articles in the Daily Sun. In a real newspaper, a story of this import would have been receiving front-page coverage and in-depth analysis, and we would not have to try to piece it together in an on-line-discussion site.

[Barefoot]

Originally Posted by rubicon

..... the biggest issue is that the reason we have all of these questions is no one has stepped up to say that if the worse occurs it will not monetarily affect resident. and before anyone suggest that no one knows then i would counter with then let us know what you already know as you have progressed in your fight against the IRS because surely you have laid out the possible scenarios both if you win and if you lose as to the financial implication and the sources of income to remedy a potential tax penalty and whom it will fall upon. Residents can face the realities and have them embrace them or ignore reality and have it work against them

Good post Rubicon. This would allow current residents to better understand "worst case/best case" scenarios, and the possible financial implications. Having said that, I can understand that the Developer doesn't want to publish any information that could possibly lessen the enthusiasm of prospective purchasers. Although I personally think the demand will always be there for this beautiful retirement community.

[senior citizen]

Originally Posted by rayschic

Too early to tell. Here's a link to another article about the issue.

BREAKING: IRS Rules Against The Villages

Thank you for that link.........I just printed out the IRS letter to the attorney.

The Villages Florida Book also has:

Breaking: IRS Rules Against the Villages............

After a 5 year investigation into how the CDD borrowed money, in a memorandum dated May 30, the IRS says:

"WE believe that an entity that is organized and operated in a manner intended to perpetuate private control, and to avoid indefinitely responsibility to a public electorate, cannot be a political subdivision of a State."

Anyway, it's a lot to read...........plus many comments.......

[Mikeod]

Originally Posted by jimbo2012

I think this issue has a long time to work its way thru the process of options for them.

But assuming for a moment the ruling stands what does it it mean in $$ to each homeowner here?

No one, and I mean no one, really knows. There are so many players in this game besides the homeowners. Bond holders, lawyers, certifying agents, central districts, developer, IRS. Unfortunately, there is no direct voice for the homeowner involved.

IMHO, there is also no DIRECT liability for the homeowners. But central district funds are being expended in this fight and a loss for the central districts could threaten the amenities we enjoy. I'm glad we have the POA watching the progress of this dispute because I'm not confident the VHA or Sun will give us unfiltered news.

[EdV]

Originally Posted by Advogado

In regard to your last point, it would be comforting if the Developer would issue a formal statement reassuring residents that everything will continue, no matter what the outcome. However, in the over 5 years that the investigation has continued, the Developer has not done so. The Developer has, instead, obscured or misrepresented the facts, via non-coverage or misleading articles in the Daily Sun. In a real newspaper, a story of this import would have been receiving front-page coverage and in-depth analysis, and we would not have to try to piece it together in an on-line-discussion site.

If you want official information regarding the Districts position on various subjects you should be checking the Districts Our Place publication here: VCDD Our Place Archives

You can even have updates sent via email if you wish.

That said, as far back as this June 2009 issue, Janet Tutt, spokesperson for the Center District (and therefore the developer who controls it) stated:

“Although I can not address all the rumors, the one that is most disturbing floats the possibility that an adverse ruling would somehow result in increased amenity fees or assessments. That is absolutely false. Neither amenity fees, nor resident assessments could be increased for such a purpose.”

[andercat]

Originally Posted by Advogado

In regard to your last point, it would be comforting if the Developer would issue a formal statement reassuring residents that everything will continue, no matter what the outcome. However, in the over 5 years that the investigation has continued, the Developer has not done so. The Developer has, instead, obscured or misrepresented the facts, via non-coverage or misleading articles in the Daily Sun. In a real newspaper, a story of this import would have been receiving front-page coverage and in-depth analysis, and we would not have to try to piece it together in an on-line-discussion site.

I do not think that the developer will say anything unless sales of homes are threatened. I know that when my husband and I come for our lifestyle visit that we will be asking about the ramifications of this IRS decision. I want to know if the decision goes against the developer, what will the residents be liable for? Will any costs to settle this be imposed on the residents? Will there be sufficient money to maintain the amenities? I am moving here for the amenities. If they go to pot, I don't want to be here. I want an answer to these questions in writing.

We looked at TV about 7 or 8 years ago and ruled it out because the developer was never going to leave. No 55+ community we looked at had the developer controlling the community forever. We looked in TX, FL, AZ, NV and CA. We thought the the folks that moved here were giving up their rights and souls for free golf.

Now our son has moved to Orlando and we a considering TV again. If the developer would leave at build out, it would sure make our decision a lot easier. Making money for innovation, hard work, and risk taking is fine. It's the control the Morse family will not give up that is disturbing to me.

Sorry this got so long winded. I really would like to move here but I am really getting scared.

[gomoho]

Could someone PLEASE enlighten me as to who the beneficiary of this tax free money is/was???

[villagerjack]

Originally Posted by andercat

I do not think that the developer will say anything unless sales of homes are threatened. I know that when my husband and I come for our lifestyle visit that we will be asking about the ramifications of this IRS decision. I want to know if the decision goes against the developer, what will the residents be liable for? Will any costs to settle this be imposed on the residents? Will there be sufficient money to maintain the amenities? I am moving here for the amenities. If they go to pot, I don't want to be here. I want an answer to these questions in writing.

We looked at TV about 7 or 8 years ago and ruled it out because the developer was never going to leave. No 55+ community we looked at had the developer controlling the community forever. We looked in TX, FL, AZ, NV and CA. We thought the the folks that moved here were giving up their rights and souls for free golf.



Now our son has moved to Orlando and we a considering TV again. If the developer would leave at build out, it would sure make our decision a lot easier. Making money for innovation, hard work, and risk taking is fine. It's the control the Morse family will not give up that is disturbing to me.

Sorry this got so long winded. I really would like to move here but I am really getting scared.

We love The Villages butI never thought that I was giving up my soul for free golf. The Villages us not for everybody. Please consider carefully

[Advogado]

Originally Posted by EdV

If you want official information regarding the Districts position on various subjects you should be checking the Districts Our Place publication here: VCDD Our Place Archives

You can even have updates sent via email if you wish.

That said, as far back as this June 2009 issue, Janet Tutt, spokesperson for the Center District (and therefore the developer who controls it) stated:

“Although I can not address all the rumors, the one that is most disturbing floats the possibility that an adverse ruling would somehow result in increased amenity fees or assessments. That is absolutely false. Neither amenity fees, nor resident assessments could be increased for such a purpose.”

The quote by Ms. Tutt is generally true, because: (1) The Center Districts cannot tax outside their boundaries, no residents live therein, and, therefore no residents can be assessed taxes by those Districts, and (2) the amenity-fee increases cannot exceed CPI increases (however, maybe the amenity fees would not be increased to the maximum in the absence of bond-related costs). However, Ms. Tutt (perhaps unintentionally, but maybe not) is dodging the real question: If the Center Districts incur huge costs as a result of the IRS investigation, from whom will the money necessary to continue the amenity system come? Is the Developer going to voluntarily return the huge profits (illegitimately made at the expense of the US taxpayer, according to the IRS) made from the sale of the amenity facilities? The last time the Developer defaulted on his amenity obligations, it took a class-action lawsuit to get him to pay up.

[villagerjack]

Originally Posted by gomoho

Could someone PLEASE enlighten me as to who the beneficiary of this tax free money is/was???

The issuer of the bonds, The Center Districts, are paying a lower rate of interest to the bondholders who receive tax free income. Now that interest rates have come down substantially (creeped up last week) The "problem" is lessened and it may be an advantageous time to buy back those bonds with Developer assistance and issue taxable bonds. Maybe a hybrid, Fed Taxable, Fl Tax free would work.?

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by EdV

If you want official information regarding the Districts position on various subjects you should be checking the Districts Our Place publication here: VCDD Our Place Archives

You can even have updates sent via email if you wish.

That said, as far back as this June 2009 issue, Janet Tutt, spokesperson for the Center District (and therefore the developer who controls it) stated:

“Although I can not address all the rumors, the one that is most disturbing floats the possibility that an adverse ruling would somehow result in increased amenity fees or assessments. That is absolutely false. Neither amenity fees, nor resident assessments could be increased for such a purpose.”

EdV: Re your comments "From your lips to God's ears". Please tell us who in an official capacity can guarantee that won't happen?. Who in an official capacity can speak to the effect this ruling will have/not respecting residents? Please tell us what officials are working to protect the individual/collective rights of residents? We know what the contracts say but contracts were written to be broken . It was in God's plan so that we would have an over-abundance of lawyers.
With all respect due, I am still amazed that as a non-resident you seem to have more information regarding this subject matter than the average resident bear.

I agree with barefoot this issue won't deter from the building of The Villages. Obviously there are competing voices here and thankful so because this subject needs to be studied carefully and followed to its conclusion. Methinks some are fearful of what affect this will have on their investment. Might i suggest that as any investment a continual watchful and probing eye is necessary even if someone else is managing their funds. Investors need to know how current events are affecting their savings so that if there is a need to pivot..they can pivot like a Magic Johnson without falling on their metphorical faces.

Again I say cooler heads, like Sgt Joe Friday prevail, so all I want are the facts