[villagerjack]

Originally Posted by PennBF

It is absolutely astonishing that anyone would wish for and want to be governed by a "non elected" person over representation by persons elected by the people. It is impossible to discuss this since it is so foreign to what we all stood for and fought for. It is totally possible that we as resident will be assessed in the thousands of dollars because of a failure to apply the proper accounting system taxable controls. Enough said..

The "non-elected" person has done a fine job preserving the rights if ALL residents to utilize the amenities on an equal and unfettered basis. Once in the hands of 'elected" people, power groups tend to form which can violate the unfettered right to access facilities, particularly for snowbirds who spend only limited time in The Villages. I have experienced this first hand. Please read my prior post in answer to Gracie.

[mickey100]

The Morses could come in and steal the silverware and some of you would be defending them. If the residents have to pay for his dancing around the laws, or our amenities are reduced, you can bet that any defenders of the Morses will be in the minority in our community. I'm looking forward to the article in the Orlando Sentinel Wednesday which will cover possible consequences of the IRS ruling. Of course some people won't believe a word the paper has to say because the paper "picks on" the Morses so much. Sigh.

[perrjojo]

Originally Posted by PennBF

It is absolutely astonishing that anyone would wish for and want to be governed by a "non elected" person over representation by persons elected by the people. It is impossible to discuss this since it is so foreign to what we all stood for and fought for. It is totally possible that we as resident will be assessed in the thousands of dollars because of a failure to apply the proper accounting system taxable controls. Enough said..

Perhaps you are astonished because you have not lived in a neighborhood where the board was elected by the residents and the elected board did not have the qualifications or foresight to govern anything. It can become a big mess with pet projects and no foresight for the future. Then the good ole boy system really kicks in and things can go to pot quickly. I speak from previous experience. As another poster has said, "be careful what you wish for.

[nitehawk]

If anyone is interested in viewing some previous post about the IRS situation - just look back and see how many (most) to the then members crucified Lauren Ritchie...after she wrote an article about the IRS situation and how we could possible lose!!!!! She hates TV - she is not a reporter - she is a liar -etc
She who laughs last laughs best --- she was right --- will wait for here next article and see what she says --- I guess the championship courses will now never improve. Those Georgia mountains starting to look better and better. Should i sell now and avoid the rush - if i can sell now !!!!! We will see at least I only own one home --- no rentals

[Peachie]

[QUOTE=mickey100 I'm looking forward to the article in the Orlando Sentinel Wednesday which will cover possible consequences of the IRS ruling.

Of course, you are Mickey, I would be surprised if you weren't. (Bigger sigh here.)


djl8412, "If you feel that by someone taking over running this place after being elected by residents instead of being hand-picked then many of us will be glad to help you pack."


djl8412, wear comfortable shoes to help people pack because there will be a bigger exodus than you think if The Villages is run by "elected residents". Talk to people and see what they think of your idea of elected residents to change what we now have in The Villages.

PennBF:

It is absolutely astonishing that anyone would wish for and want to be governed by a "non elected" person over representation by persons elected by the people. It is impossible to discuss this since it is so foreign to what we all stood for and fought for. It is totally possible that we as resident will be assessed in the thousands of dollars because of a failure to apply the proper accounting system taxable controls. Enough said.


PennBF, this is exactly what people have stood and fought for... the RIGHT to live in a community of this caliber with this type of representation that we desire. I understand that some people would not want this type of representation and there are so many communities from which they may choose, they would not be happy living here. Good luck to them.

Nitehawk, IMHO, Lauren Ritchie doesn't strike me as the kind of person who would laugh.

[rayschic]

Originally Posted by Dr Winston O Boogie jr

I don't think so. The IRS ruled on an IRS regulation. Isn't the next step to go to the courts?

Next step: (copied from the link in the OP)

Sources said the CDD has several options going forward including, settling with the IRS to preserve the tax-exempt status of the bonds, appealing to the agency’s Office of Appeals, allowing the IRS to go after the bondholders who could in turn challenge the ruling in court, or seeking a legislative fix. The issuer does not have the ability to fight the IRS in a court, only taxpayers can do that, they added.

[NJblue]

Originally Posted by mickey100

The Morses could come in and steal the silverware and some of you would be defending them. If the residents have to pay for his dancing around the laws, or our amenities are reduced, you can bet that any defenders of the Morses will be in the minority in our community. I'm looking forward to the article in the Orlando Sentinel Wednesday which will cover possible consequences of the IRS ruling. Of course some people won't believe a word the paper has to say because the paper "picks on" the Morses so much. Sigh.

I for one am not defending Morse. It just seems to me that we the residents were the ones benefitting from what you call "dancing around the law". Afterall, the result of this "dance" was lower amenity fees for us. If he had not structured the deal as tax-free bonds, we would have to pay higher amenity fees to cover the extra bond interest payment. If you see it another way, please explain.

[villagerjack]

Originally Posted by mickey100

The Morses could come in and steal the silverware and some of you would be defending them. If the residents have to pay for his dancing around the laws, or our amenities are reduced, you can bet that any defenders of the Morses will be in the minority in our community. I'm looking forward to the article in the Orlando Sentinel Wednesday which will cover possible consequences of the IRS ruling. Of course some people won't believe a word the paper has to say because the paper "picks on" the Morses so much. Sigh.

I suggest you do an analysis of the market values of homes in similar over 55 communities and see how the values have held up over the years. My home in another Over 55 Community run by an elected board has dropped by $100,000 since 1997 while my home in the Villages has increased by $30,000. I wonder why Ritchie has not " investigated" these facts. My Villages home will sell for $200 s/f while my Del Webb is $120 s/f. There is a reason. It has to do with the Morse's running things in a proper way instead if elected unqualified self serving power hungry residents.

[ilovetv]

Originally Posted by villagerjack

I suggest you do an analysis of the market values of homes in similar over 55 communities and see how the values have held up over the years. My home in another Over 55 Community run by an elected board has dropped by $100,000 since 1997 while my home in the Villages has increased by $30,000. I wonder why Ritchie has not " investigated" these facts. My Villages home will sell for $200 s/f while my Del Webb is $120 s/f. There is a reason. It has to do with the Morse's running things in a proper way instead if elected unqualified self serving power hungry residents.

Thank you.

[TVMayor]

Originally Posted by njbchbum

based on personal experience, i share many of the same feelings re homeowner associations as villagerjack. if anyone does not now have a poor opinion of cliques, just wait until your neighbors replace the developer reps and start running the place. if that were ever to happen, i think i would have to start a movement on the historic side for secession!

btw - the 6/12 amenity auth comm agenda has been posted and irs updates is an item untder the reports and input section; audience comments is another item listed there!
http://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/P...20130612aa0201
wed 6/12 1:30pm Savannah Center - Ashley Wilkes Room

TOTAL $336,696.22 IRS Legal Expenses

[TVMayor]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

We all moved here knowing just how this place worked. We "voted" with our wallets. No one forced us to come here, it was our own free choice and we can leave in exactly the same way. I do not see a CDD as anything but a very well designed deed restricted community and I liked it when I saw it.

The way I read

http://www.districtgov.org/images/IR...M%206.5.13.pdf

The CDD can continue on managing things as they have been doing with one exception they will not sell tax free bonds ever again.

[ilovetv]

Originally Posted by PennBF

It is absolutely astonishing that anyone would wish for and want to be governed by a "non elected" person over representation by persons elected by the people. It is impossible to discuss this since it is so foreign to what we all stood for and fought for. It is totally possible that we as resident will be assessed in the thousands of dollars because of a failure to apply the proper accounting system taxable controls. Enough said..

The constituents of these cities having "representation by persons elected by the people" could only wish their cities and economies were run as orderly, beautified, and as solvently as TV is. They can only wish their home market values were as healthy as they are in TV. People here from the Stockton, CA area can tell you how great a job their "elected by the people" politicians have been doing.

9 American Cities and Counties Going Broke

"....Other municipalities have excessive liabilities that they are unable to meet. Central Falls, RI, declared bankruptcy in August due largely to its bloated pension plan.

Strafford County, NH, spends two-fifths of its budget on a single nursing home. It funds residents' Medicaid, but is not receiving full reimbursement from the state, causing multi-million dollar deficits.

Other cities have simply made bad investments. Harrison, NJ, built a $200 million sports arena that has not brought in the amount of money the city was expecting.

Similarly, Salem, NJ, built a large office building downtown with the intention of leasing office space. But construction delays caused lease payment delays and money has been taken from the debt fund numerous times.

24/7 Wall St. has looked at the nine municipal bodies with the worst credit ratings assigned by Moody's, not including school systems, rated Ba2 and lower. To get a sense of how these areas are doing, we also included most recent median household income figures from the Census Bureau. This level of credit rating implies a substantial risk of default for investors who bought these bonds with the expectation of being repaid.

This is 24/7 Wall St.'s list of Nine American Cities and Counties Going Broke......"

9 American Cities and Counties Going Broke - Yahoo! Finance

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by djl8412

The names were used to illustrate a point that we should not relinquish objectivity and take everything for granted no matter where we live. If you feel comfortable with power and money being used carte blanche without any accountability from a voting populous then TV is your heaven. Many more of us would like to have the ability to question means and motives when necessary. This is one of those times! If you feel that by someone taking over running this place after being elected by residents instead of being hand-picked then many of us will be glad to help you pack.

I was angry and what I said was over the top but helping me pack is not nice either. I am happy with how things are run here and I have heard horror stories of places where people who lived in nice communities pushed their own agendas and ruined those nice communities by spending on unnecessary and frivolous things. I personally lived in a community outside Cincinnati where the residents bought the golf course to keep it from becoming a public course and some the "girls" wanted to spend the money on fixing up the club house bathroom and hiring a masseuse and some of the "guys" wanted to completely replace all of the greens and get new golf carts. We didn't have the money for either of these projects but some thought we could easily borrow some.

We all come here with our own experiences. I think that this place is as close to perfect as it can be. I think that some of the reasonable posters on this forum would continue to keep it nicely, but even saying that, you never know. I am a red blooded patriot who believes in the American way but in this case I like the way the wizard of oz has done things. In a couple of years or so down the way we all can see how the folks who don't know exactly as well how to run things will do it. That will come very soon. I shudder to think about it.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by mickey100

The Morses could come in and steal the silverware and some of you would be defending them. If the residents have to pay for his dancing around the laws, or our amenities are reduced, you can bet that any defenders of the Morses will be in the minority in our community. I'm looking forward to the article in the Orlando Sentinel Wednesday which will cover possible consequences of the IRS ruling. Of course some people won't believe a word the paper has to say because the paper "picks on" the Morses so much. Sigh.

The Morses could be absolutely perfect and yet because of their politics and the fact that they are rich some would continue to find fault with them. There is no reason to say things like they are "dancing around the laws", that is simply not true and not even the IRS has come near saying anything like that. I don't know them, you don't know them, no one knows them. This place is superior to anyplace I have ever lived and the Morses dreamed it up and keep it nice. It sometimes feels like some people because of the above mentioned prejudices would be tickled pink with any wrongdoing proven on the part of the Morses.

I read all about THE lawsuit and I still can't figure out why they were sued. It sounds implausible that they were sued for not maintaining properties here and for improper use of amenity fees and the folks who brought suit tried to get that case heard in other venues until they ended up where they were. We know how it ended and who got what.

Then the case of the Morses and the charges levied at them for shooting wildlife on their ranch in the west somewhere and leaving it to rot on the ground. I never even knew there were laws like that. I guess that because of their great wealth they paid someone off and those charges were reduced or something?? I never could figure that out, I don't hunt and know nothing about hunting laws and when I heard they were charged with breaking of any law, even one I didn't know about or understand I was really upset. Laws are not to be broken. They either didn't do what they were alleged to do or had good lawyers I guess because they aren't in jail.

Then the Morses removed their previous invitation to the Relay for Life to continue to have it at the high school after they asked the American Cancer Society to "kick in" directly for the Moffitt center and they refused. Not popular at all. There were slings and arrows shot by both sides...I always wondered what was the real back story. Someday we will know when someone writes a tell all book about this place.

They may all be a bunch of greedy and corrupt people, but what if they are decent, hard working and nice people or does being rich and conservative disqualify them for that? The truth is that they are probably somewhere in between, just like the rest of us. Pre judging people on the basis of anything is ugly. I do it, everyone does it. But we shouldn't.

I am going to work on finding bad in them and worrying more.

[mickey100]

Originally Posted by NJblue

I for one am not defending Morse. It just seems to me that we the residents were the ones benefitting from what you call "dancing around the law". Afterall, the result of this "dance" was lower amenity fees for us. If he had not structured the deal as tax-free bonds, we would have to pay higher amenity fees to cover the extra bond interest payment. If you see it another way, please explain.

Good question, but here's the way I see it. Had the bonds issued been taxable bonds, they would have cost the borrowers less than nontaxable bonds, assuming they both had the same coupon rate. We'd have to go back in time and see the bond prices at the time of bond issuance to see exactly the spread between taxable and non-taxable bond prices. Anyways, the developer would have had to sell more bonds to obtain the same amount of money, so he would have paid a similar amount of interest. Not to mention there may have been additional tax writeoffs, depreciation etc., to be considered. I am no bond expert, and neither I expect are you, but we both know bond issuance and underwriting, etc., is complicated.

My chief complaint has been that the developer was warned back in 2003 about the legalities of the bond issuance, and he continued to do so. Here's what W. Mark Scott, director of the IRS' tax-exempt bond division, wrote to the district on Jan. 29, 2003, when the bonds got a thumbs up after an earlier audit.

"Our closing of these cases, however, should not be construed as an approval of your method of operations. We have concerns regarding: the amount of control the developer has over the issuer; the questions of value of the assets sold by the developer to the issuer as these are not arm's length [transactions]; the treatment of income and expenses (whether income is properly reported and expenses deducted only once); compliance with state law."

Please note above , the IRS said directly that they had concerns with the developer's compliance with state law. I'm sorry you don't like my term "dancing around the law" but when they were warned and continued to push the limits of the law, so be it.

Now, many years later, if the bonds have to be re-issued and we the residents have to pay the IRS penalties, we are concerned about the financial consequences to The Villages and our amenities.