With all due respect, I don't think you can legally call a golf cart transportation unless it is Street Legal ----and you are a legal licensed driver. With that said, I still don't care if a few golf carts from Stonecrest or Spruce Creek use the trails. But apparently the Developer and his lawyers do.

well I care because right now our trails are pristine. take a look at the trails between stonecrest/walmart, and the "GATE". they are trashy and im afraid the same will happen on our trails.

Be sure to point that out to the Cop when tries to give you a ticket for a stop sign violation in your standard golf cart.

In response to any prior comments as to the cart path lot being private property so the owner can do whatever he wants, the opening statement of Resolution 98-106 reads:

WHEREAS, Leesburg Regional Medical Center, Inc., petitioner, for the purpose of providing a thoroughfare for golf carts, has presented to the Town Commission of the Town of Lady Lake, a petition to close and vacate said property, described as follows: [lot 3422 unit 13 etc.]

Clearly the petition was made to ensure that after constructing the cart path that they would not find out later that the town had future plans to construct a pump station or other such town utility on that lot.

Notice that the petition says “golf carts” not “Villager resident golf carts”. In fact, nowhere in the entire petition is the word “Villager” or “Villages” mentioned. Furthermore, since the approved engineering plans did not show any type of controlled access gate, it clearly supports the argument that this thoroughfare for golf carts was not intended to be restricted in any way.

It further states that a notice of intent was published in the Orlando Sentinel giving the public and the property owner an opportunity to object to the plan.

So it is my contention that in 1998, pursuant to the Town’s approval and the completion of the approved project plan, a permanent and public right of way for golf carts through that lot was established and remains in effect today and the current or future owner cannot change that.

I would agree with that statement but my opinion is that this issue with this particular path goes much deeper than the folks at Stonecrest. If access is allowed to one group then that fact gives argument to others seeking same access to TV somewhere else.
First it was Stonecrest, very shortly it will be Spruce Creek South followed by Harbor Chase. Wildwood tried to get golf cart paths built along 466A back in 2011 and Sumter County shot them down. Now Fruitland Park wants access as part of approval for the developer to buy land for further development. Not to be forgotten is the small office park at Rolling Acres and 466 who tried to get golf cart access a couple of years back but were also shot down.
My points here are once things open up then it is hard to stop the tide. The upkeep and, here is the key word again, liability are owned by Villagers.

Big girl and big boy panties sometimes have to be donned.
 

Hindsight is the best.

I think that when that wall went up, we shoulda let well enough alone and worked out the problems and inconveniences the best we could as we all have been doing for a good long time.

Now we are out of the frying pan and into the fire.

I still say that the Morses aren't transparent, but they are smart as heck.

That's easy to say if you own a car or have access to a car or are able to drive a car.

Hopefully all the Morse supporters will attend the meeting to show their support for the developer. The press will be there in full force.

What time is the meeting?
We basically use the golf cart access to go to doctors, lake imaging,the va facility,publix, winn dixie, the farmers market at spanish springs, retail stores, and various restaurants. We do not go into the villages just to drive around on the golf cart paths. If we were to use our car it would just put more traffic on the roads throughout the villages.

Couple of questions regarding private vs. public.

If a municipality uses federal tax-free bonds to construct something, how does that make it public? Let's say Lady Lake issues bonds to build a pool. Can they not prohibit non-residents from using it? Or say they build a nature trail. Can't they restrict access? I don't see that using federal tax exempt bonds automatically forces an entity to open access to everyone.

Also, a distinction needs to be made regarding cart paths. Those that are completely separate from roadways are maintained with amenity funds. If they are public, why are they not maintained by the tax dollars we pay in addition to our amenity fee? I don't recall a credit on my tax bill for that portion of the amenity fee that goes toward maintenance of those paths. Now, the paths/diamond lanes that are on the surface streets are maintained by the county and funded by tax dollars (property and/or gas taxes). That also applies to roads within the community that have no designated cart lane, but are used by carts as well as autos.

Frankly, I agree with others who believe that this whole situation is not the result of safety/liability concerns with outside carts entering TV. Rather it is a developer who has tired of outside businesses advertising cart access to TV which undermines his ability to sell/lease land for similar enterprises within TV. I don't know what Freedom Pointe or the facility on 466A paid for their property to get cart access within TV, but I think it is safe to assume it was more than the new one on 441 paid.

I truly hope the result of all this is the path remains open and access is unaltered from before the wall. I fear that if access to TV is restricted, it won't be long before Harbor Chase decides maintaining the path is not worth it without access to TV.

He can and not only that but he can give you a DUI.

This is the likely reason the wall went up in the first place
 

I think Peachie has identified the reason why the wall was erected in the first place. Whenever something abrupt and dramatic happens to change the status quo, in addition to asking "Why?", one should also ask "Why now?"

After being used as a thoroughfare for 15+ years, the wall was erected on the weekend 2 days before Villages representatives appeared before Fruitland Park officials to discuss expansion south of 466A into Fruitland Park's jurisdiction. Fruitland Park officials want agreement for Fruitland Park residents to use Villages multi-modal paths to access merchants at Colony Plaza as one condition in the negotiations.

Fruitland Park officials could have pointed to precedent of the longstanding "breech" in the northern Villages perimeter on Paradise Drive, that is until the "breech" was sealed right before the meeting with Fruitland Park.

I think impending negotiations with Fruitland Park prompted erection of the wall on Paradise Drive. Harbor Chase and the new assisted living facility would not explain the "Why now?". The Fruitland Park negotiations certainly would. They would also explain why the Developer was not really paying attention to the impact on the historic section, if his focus is concentrated on new expansion. If one's head is in the realms of multi-million dollar expansion deals, one is not thinking about interruption in Villagers' day to day lives. Indeed, not paying attention to such impact is thoughtless, but in the scenario I described above, it it understandable.

What I really hope happened is Mr. Morse was reminded by those who knew his father, that his father would never have overlooked the impact of his actions on his neighbors. Though we don't know what caused him to dismantle the wall, perhaps Mr. Morse could be afforded some measure of forgiveness, if reminder of his father's generosity and good character, instead a legal technicality, prompted him to remove the wall so quickly after he installed it.

We Villagers could take the high road on this one, as the view is better from the high road. The Developer can most definitely be thoughtless, and even heartless, as he's demonstrated on a number of occasions. But he can also be incredibly thoughtful as he's demonstrated by planning and implementing the most phenomenal retirement community in the country. Good and bad can exist in the same person. We are all examples of that.

Here's your answer to paragraph one: The fact that they can issue Tax Free Bonds. You must be a municipality to issue such bonds or a Public School District, or a County. The Villages is considered a Special Municipality under Florida Law. They are bound by many of the same regulations as any other city. The IRS in their last ruling to the Villages indicated they believe that the Villages because of the way some things were manipulated violated the rules which define the Villages as a political Municipality, therefore they had no authority to issue Tax Free Bonds. Sorry I got a bit off topic. Have a nice day.

A very good understanding of the issues.
 

Me too. I don't get all the negativity toward the Morse Family. They have spent at least two generations building an almost perfect retirement community,IMO. It's the American Way. Do something exceptional and you will be rewarded.

Way to connect the dots. Also Fruitland Park already has regulations and some sort of sticker program for using Golf Carts on Public Streets as I understand. Fruitland Park I hope will stand their ground.

I agree with you. I to believe it was Harbor Chase also and the fact that it wasn't a Village owned property. Period

Steve, has anyone done the research regarding Stonecrest? Were any tax-free bonds or public financing provided for the building of Stonecrest and it's infrastructure or was it developed completely with private money. (Deep pockets may have provided this but I'm curious.)

Doesn't answer my question. I read posts asserting that, because the infrastructure was financed using tax exempt bonds, TV has no right to restrict access to those paths that are maintained by amenity fees. I don't believe that this is correct, thus the examples above. Your response appears to say that any municipality financing anything using those bonds gives up the ability to place any restrictions on its use. If this is so, I should have unfettered access to any municipal facility anywhere as long as it was financed with tax exempt bonds. Really?

Sorry for taking this off topic. Belongs in a different or new thread.

It has been a few years since we attended the golf cart safety clinic but I seem to recall that the Sumter County Sheriffs office stated that they can not issue speeding tickets on Villages golf cart paths because they are considered private property?

No public monies where used to develop Stoncrest. The first developer went belly up and a group of investors from I believe NY invested in the development. All the money used were private funds. No bonds were issued. We are responsible for all maintenance on the roads and infrastructure. The Water treatment use to belong to the developer but was sold to Marion County. It kind of is a kick in the backside because my property taxes do not reflect the fact that Stonecrest receives no public money for the roads or sewers. I pay the same as any other resident of Marion County but I chose to live there. So far I've been very happy.

How could FP residents access TV golf cart trails. They're not allowed to use their carts until you get up to the small shopping center past the horse farm?

I am sure that the usual person with the notebook will be there glaring.

I wonder so often why the animosity.

NONE of us have met the Morses. I am pretty sure of that. Wouldn't it just be amazing if an old rich man was also a nice old man?

Meanwhile I am glad that our home is not our depended on investment, because we are all bent on devaluing our properties, on the internet, the television and in public meetings.

Plus I don't feel as warm toward Stonecrest as I used to.

I think we have accomplished nothing and have gone backwards.

This is for anyone concerned about TV cart paths, there swimming pools etc. I live at stonecrest and we as a whole do not use you pools. We have 3 outdoor pools and an indoor pool. If you found someone using your pool that is illegal because they have to have ID. End of subject. Also we have lighted pickle ball courts and boccie courts that people from the TV use at night. Do I care no does anyone else care no!! This is so stupid to fight and argue over this cart opening. We at Stonecrest are allowed to access your villages and use public stores, public restaurants, dry cleaners and your country clubs and championship golf courses at full price. So where do you all get off saying things are private? Let's come together and stop the bickering like a bunch of children. Mr morse has caused all of this to happen because WHY?? we don't know or probably will never know the real truth. Hope everyone has a blessed day!!!!

If a municipality wants to issue a bond to build a town only pool or recreation center, they will usually issue a taxable municipal bond. There are some exceptions to this called “Tax Exempt Private Activity Bonds” but those are allowed for only a select list of facilities. Private recreational golf cart paths would not be one of those. See this IRS document for the details.

But the more important issue is that the roads throughout a CDD are supposed to be public, and because the roads in the villages CDDs allow golf cart usage, and are maintained by the county, you cannot have the county forcing these carts onto a private cart path in order to proceed.

Your questions about why the multi-modal paths weren’t being maintained by the individual districts maintenance taxes is an interesting one. Prior to the big 50 million dollar class action settlement quite a few years ago, it was the VCCDD’s position that those paths should in fact be maintained by the numbered districts and not the VCCDD or SLCDD. And at that time, the paths above 466 were deteriorating and too narrow so an upgrade was going to be expensive. Naturally, some of the individual districts squawked about that. The loudest squawkers were of course those districts that had the largest number of paths. So yup, at one point back then even Village residents were bickering with each other over the multi-modal paths.

In the end, the settlement infused some $30 million into the VCCDD and they now maintain the paths on the north side.

A municipality does have control of their facilities but they don not have authority to discriminate its usage to residents only. The Villages would be allowed to require a Trail Sticker be purchased and Golf carts inspected before being allowed on the trail. But would not be allowed to discriminate based on your residency. Does that help? Issuing Tax Free Bonds are restricted to Municipalities. You get your funding but you also get a whole set of rules you need to follow. You can regulate but not discriminate is the simplest answer.

If there is anything I have learned on these threads, it's that Stonecrest insists that non-Stonecresters can use anything of theirs that we want. I hope you're sharing your message with Spruce Creek, the new assisted living and developments to your north. I'm sure they'll be thrilled.

If we were talking about turtles or birds the government would relocate them, may be the wall should stay closed and the people relocated.

I wonder if Lady Lake will use eminent domain, take the lot, and make the path open to the public forever? That would be a perfect solution.

For all residents North of the Villages in that area...

Pretty much would put an end to all the arguments. I hope someone will post the meeting notes this evening. A factual post please.

No, for all the public who are entitled to go in and out of the villages, at will, by law.

It's ok if they have to press a button to keep the false perception of TV being private. It's already legal for people to come and go as they please in the villages.

Let's not segregate, everyone is entitled to go to the villages, not just those that live there.

And there fellow Villagers, is in a nutshell, the problem with that hole in the wall.

HalfWayIn, you are permitted to come into The Villages by motor vehicle or street legal cart. It is not the Morse's intent to provide their private development to those of you who choose not to live here.

Are they unable to block access now, I don't know but if not, it would be very advantageous for Villagers to rent their houses out for Vacationland and move out of The Villages. Stonecrest could be advertised as an additional freebie for the renters.

We'll see how it all plays out.

Very interesting read.

"The districts own and maintain the paths", not the municipality or the county.

"the county sheriff does not have jurisdiction to exercise its law enforcement power over the districts’ paths."

If the county sheriff has no jurisdiction over the paths but does on the roadway, it would seem to suggest a clearcut dichotomy between paths and roads and not the integration purported by some.

The Stonecrest "8 point manifesto" advocating to the contrary would seem to project a revisionist opinion.

No one knows how this will all wash out after the legal gymnastics, but it would appear there exists a clear separation between roadways maintained by tax dollars and cart paths maintained by district fees paid by Villagers. Exceptions on paths actually in roadways is self evident.

This explains why with rare exception, DWI comes to mind, law enforcement cannot enforce most traffic laws on cart paths. For certain they can enforce where the cart path commingles with the roadway.

LINK BELOW

The Villages Voice
Villages Fact Finder

Villages Fact Finder

The Villages Community Development Districts were developed as a mixed-use retirement community that were required to provide non-automotive, non-vehicular, multi-modal paths interconnecting the districts for bicycles, pedestrians, skaters and golf carts. These interconnecting multi-modal paths are intended as alternative transportation routes for pedestrians and golfers to access The Villages’ numerous golf courses and amenities, as well as, be used by cyclers, skaters, and golf carts.

Forms of Transportation Allowed on the Paths

The directives clearly provide for path use pedestrians, skaters, bicycles and golf carts. Other modes which are not explicitly addressed in the development orders (D.O.’s) of the Districts are subject to some interpretation.

Segways – not a vehicle (in the State of Florida for use on a highway) and are treated like bicycles – yes for use on path.

Mopeds and motorcycles – are vehicles (intended for use on highway) and do not meet D.O.’s intended use of paths. (Mopeds may use the paths when propelled solely by human power.)

Street legal golf carts and low speed vehicles are still either golf carts or intended for use also as golf carts, and therefore may be used on the paths.

Traffic Control Measures on the Paths

The Districts own and maintain the paths and therefore could adopt rules restricting certain types of transportation methods, however, these rules would have no real value since the Districts have now enforcement authority.

Similarly, the Districts could establish speed limits for safety purposes, but again have no enforcement authority.

The Districts has the authority to construct speed bumps for safety and to reduce damage to the paths caused by speed.

Enforcement of District Established Rules

The Community Development Districts do not possess any law enforcement powers. Also the county sheriff does not have jurisdiction to exercise its law enforcement power over the districts’ paths. A legislative change to Florida statues is a possible means to expand the traffic control and enforcement jurisdiction of local law enforcement agencies to extend to multi-modal path that are open to the public.

Golf Cart Registration

Without law enforcement powers, the Districts cannot mandate or enforce a registration process for golf carts. However, there is no apparent obstacle to the Districts offering a voluntary inspection and registration program as a service to those persons operating golf carts on the Districts’ paths.

A Legal Opinion

The Villages is among many developing “golf cart” communities pondering rules and their enforcement on multi-modal paths. The Fact Finder has summarized the findings of Districts’ attorney on multi-modal paths here and the attorney recommends that the Districts workshop these matters regarding speed bumps, legislative changes to expand the enforcement jurisdiction of local law enforcement agencies, speed limits and desired types of conveyances so there is continuity among the districts as required by the development orders.

What problem? I have a home in TV and Stonecrest. Wow!

I still don't see how those in TV are entitled to lock others out by blocking any legal means of transportation. Oh, you say private property the path is? Well, that is where I got the idea of Lady Lake using eminent domain to eliminate the private designation. Actually, I think Lady Lake's decree already did that. Tonight is coming fast.

I don't intend to get into anyone's "intentions", you don't know, I don't know and no one else knows what Mr. Morse thinks or if he is even in town for that matter. Let's stick with the known laws rather then a perceived intent of someone as we will tonight at the meeting.

Bravo Ed, I live in the Historic side and I support your position! There is a misfortuneate assumption that The Villages is a closed, gated community, and the facade of the gates we pass though (the ones on public roads) add to that illusion. I will print some copies and have them in-hand at the meeting.

The law and the lawyers will prevail as always...enough said

And nowhere in this thread nor in any thread in the five years I have been a member here have I ever even implied that a non-resident was entitled to use any of the private facilities in The Villages.

This thread is about my contention that a golf cart right of way to and from Paradise Dr. was established back in 1998 and that the multi-modal paths are a natural extension of the public roads in TV.

But it’s ironic to hear people complaining about congestion and overcrowding after buying a home in a community with a 120,000 resident build out plan. Amazing

peachie - why do you think the developer had no problem providing access to that 'private development' - a very short cart path] to outside residents in the past 20 yrs?

Fruitland Park residents cannot access TV golf cart trails at this point in time. But, if The Villages expands on the land across from Burke's BBQ, as is proposed, that land is in Fruitland Park's jurisdiction in Lake County. The Villages will construct infrastructure to support new villages, just as they have done in every other section of TV. This infrastructure will include multi-modal paths. Fruitland Park officials have already said they want their residents to have access to those new paths to get to the Colony Publix and other businesses by golf cart. The Villages representatives have told Fruitland Park officials that access on the multi-modal paths by non-Villages is a point on which TV will not negotiate.

TV representatives would have had a very difficult time defending this stance given the decades long unrestricted access on Paradise Drive, until said access was abruptly eliminated just prior to the meeting with Fruitland Park officials. Now it remains to be seen how negotiations with Fruitland Park will proceed. Sumter County and Wildwood officials can see the ways in which TV provides A LOT of revenue to local businesses, and they, therefore, have decided to concede some of their "We Want" points in negotiations with TV representatives.

I agree with Gracie that the Morses are smart business people. Look around you. How else do you think TV was built? By lazy, selfish louts? No. In most developments the Developer makes all manner of promises and then bolts outta there never to be seen or heard from again, especially when problems and the inevitable lawsuits arise. In our case, Gary Morse and the Morse family still live in the midst of all the rest of us. They live in the middle of TV. Yes, they are billionaires, but they live here. I suspect they too care about the conditions where they live just as much as each of us does.

The Developer very much deserves credit for maintaining our investment--our home's value--through his policies and business practices. I'll be much more worried about the future of TV when the Morse clan decides they would rather live in some other community, in some other state, in some other country. I, for one, am thoroughly delighted the Morses still live here. I'm OK with my neighbors being billionaires, as long they remain invested in what the place looks like.

The Sherriff’s department currently does not have traffic jurisdiction over the multi-modal paths because they are owned by the VCCDD and that district has not granted them the right to do so, which it could do if it wanted to.

But that has no bearing on the fact that those paths are available for use by the public for all the reasons I have stated before.

We keep mixing apples and oranges. First we talk about the "Trails" and then we talk about the streets with golf cart marked paths along side the streets.

Police patrol the speeds on the county streets but the multi-modal trails are a totally different story. The trails our maintained by the CDD'S---The Villages---our fees. A golf cart---unless licensed and Street Legal is not in a technical way Legal Transportation the same as a car---that is my point. You have to have a Drivers License to drive a Street Legal Cart and a car but you do not to drive a golf cart.

I have never met Morse's (and have no idea how smart they are) but we did meet The father and original founder Harold Schwartz---what a nice man he was to me and my wife. I would guess the family has some very smart lawyers because they can afford the best.

I don't know about anybody else but I am always a bit skeptical of people and "things" that are not transparent-----and there was no transparency in this situation regarding the so called "Berlin Wall" and that is really sad. :gc: