The concept of "herd immunity" is not new nor is it an idea brought to the forefront by the current Coronavirus Pandemic. Herd immunity is how humans thru the ages have survived against virus in all shapes and forms. Some we have developed vaccines and medications but some like SARS and MERS we have not yet. The bottom line is this: a retiree living in the Villages can self isolate longer than most people but eventually you, like all of us, will leave your home and venture out. You will need food, medicines, physician appointments, hair cuts, new clothing, etc. And just think, you will want to visit with family, grandchildren, and friends. The world cannot isolate forever and the Coronavirus and all of its mutations are not going anywhere soon. We may develop a vaccine in a year or two or three but that will work against COVID-19. What about the next virus? And the virus after that? You are being exposed to active viruses all the time. Yes, the COVID-19 is worse than most but isolating indefinitely is not going to happen. It is impossible!

Unbelievable!
 

Isn't this mentality similar to what the Nazi were trying to do with the elimination of "weaker, substandard" races? Extreme? Are you going to sacrifice your family for the sake of the rest of the community? Why? Did you send your children to school when they had childhood diseases, because you felt that the whole community would be better off if you shared the illness? Sacrificing large groups of people with the thought that the rest would be better off and everyone could get back to work, sounds ridiculous. Sounds like the woman that founded Planned Parenthood, and her idea of getting rid of the black race in order to benefit the rest of the country. After all, some were prone to sickle cell, right? And we don't want that spreading. Why bother with vaccines, when the simple resolution is to just gather everyone together and let the strongest survive and weaker die in order to make the country stronger, right?
I'll live with wearing gloves and masks for a while and stand back six feet from others, if that will help curb the spread. Unlike others, I am not going to sacrifice others so that my stock portfolio does not tank. I am very disappointed in those that advocate irresponsible "Nazi-like" mentality of sacrificing the weak to the survival of those that are more wealthy or more healthy.
I realize that this was just an opinion of someone else, but now you have my opinion.

I think this planet is a death trap. Nobody has ever gotten out of here alive. Most of us today die of diseases that were rare causes of death prior to the 20th century. The only reason we are not panicking over them is that their growth has been slow.

I think most people who are alive today, including myself, haven't had to face any serious calamities. I grew up on stories from my grandparents. All four were born in 1906 and 1907. They lived through the spanish flu epidemic, two world wars and the great depression. They lost friends and relatives to small pox, polio, tuberculosis and measles. Two of them were born here. Two of them immigrated here for the hope of a better life than they had in post-WWI Europe. They lived frugally, loved deeply and gave charitably.

I wonder how our ancestors would react to this. Would they have rushed to put tens of millions of people out of work before knowing how many lives, if any, might be saved? The drastic measures we have taken will flatten the curve, not eliminate it. People will get sick, some will die...over a longer period of time. Hospitals won't be overwhelmed, but millions of families may be thrown into poverty. We will probably never know the number of lives we are saving, but we will be paying the cost of it for generations.

The generation you talk of didn't have the option to respond as the present generation.
Most, in those times had no idea as was going on in the next town, let alone the rest of the world, and by the time they found out, it was too late to do anything about it, even if the expertise had been available.
I sometimes think we have too much information, and a lot of it is BS, resulting in the confusion and contradiction you see just on TOTV.

Very well stated. Very logical and well reasoned. It's unfortunate that so many people think that if they just sit this out for a few months, the problem will go away. I don't think it will.

Very well said.

If one sees no difference between developing immunity to a variety of yearly viruses/diseases and gassing then incinerating civilians for political purposes, this thread should end immediately.

By the way, some people might be surprised to learn that there are numerous hospitals in the country today where the hospital has laid off many of their emergency room staff due to lack of business.

Of course the news programs on television are always going to show the most extreme situations. That brings viewers which in turn brings advertisers to pay the bills. They're not going to show empty emergency rooms across the country because that's not riveting news.

If it bleeds, it leads. If they can't show something sensational or scary, then no one would watch and they would go out of business.

Clearly, there are SOME people who see the difference, but some don't WANT to see the difference.

So, are you also writing a Science fiction novel?

You might want to fact check your opinion of what Sanger thought about black people and what was her opinion of the Nazi movement. She believed in eugenics, but she did not believe black people were inferior. She strongly spoke out for improving the well being of the black community, which someone who wanted to eliminate them would not. The Public Papers of Margaret Sanger: Web Edition

"It has been argued occasionally that Negros do not need birth control. What is needed, it is said, are better living conditions, better working conditions, more medical services, improved diets and schools. Of course they are and by dint of the efforts of all those who believe in justice, these will be achieved.
But in the meantime, in the immediate here and now, Negro parents need birth control to help alleviate some of the needless suffering and heartbreak, to get firmly established on the road to health and better living. Even if the Negros lived in Utopia the need to plan their families would still be an urgent health and social measure."

And to her credit she worked to establish clinics to help families be able to plan when to become parents in both rich and poor neighborhoods, white and black. Someone has badly misinformed you about Sanger, very badly.

Thanks for a very thought-provoking post.

H1N1 Swine flu did knock over more young people than oldies. Herd immunity was the approach taken. The CDC estimates 57 million Americans had been sickened, 257,000 had been hospitalised and 11,690 people had died (including 1,180 children) due to swine flu from April through to mid-January.

If selective isolation were taken, would the vulnerable ones know when they can safely come out? How would they be assured they would not be accidentally in contact with a carrier, active or asymptomatic? How would you notify others that a vulnerable one is cloistered inside? (Reverse lepracy stigmas?) Many vulnerable people deny they are vulnerable so would we lock them in? Employers are not likely to support a young vulnerable employee’s decision to self-isolate so how would it be verified?

On the other hand, how will this social distancing experiment end? The virus won’t go away & the herd is not going to be immune.

I guess we had better hope for much more widely available testing and fast, effective widely available treatments.This is quite a pickle we are in, isn't it?

I plan on wearing a mask until a vaccine is developed. I can’t afford to get COVID19.

There were not thousands of flights sharing illnesses worldwide every day.

It’s ironic that our solution of new-age social distancing was just old-times daily life down on the farm.

Data is neither evil nor good. Our homage to it is unearned. It needs to be verified and questioned. The models used for the curves are programs written by humans who have made certain assumptions based on their own knowledge and beliefs. This problem is much like FaceBook‘s, Google‘s, and others’ programming codes. All programming is based on human decisions and assumptions. We should not defer to data because it can be right or wrong. Statistical models are not infallible. It is appalling that the models and data were accepted without question. Our press and many of our elected officials have failed to perform their function of checks and balances probably because felt foolishly ignorant so they did not want to speak up & remove all doubt.

Well this explains a lot.

French researchers say Obesity is a contributing factor to serious illness
https://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/ar...e=08&id=961996

Uh oh!!

If the virus was something that caused you to get a mild symptom and go away, herd immunity would be acceptable. But I'm not willing to sacrifice even the most stupid people (and there are so so so many of them) in this.

This thread is getting ridiculous. "Herd Immunity" is NOT an on/off switch. Human beings do not determine whether we will experience a herd immunity or not. Herd Immunity is happening yesterday, today, and tomorrow. You cannot stop it and the concept of herd immunity is how humans survived for centuries when there was no medical research and vaccines. If you are gonna wait this Coronvirus out for a miracle cure, you will waiting for years if ever! Good luck being completely isolated from society for a few years!!

Let's try to approach this concept in a way that everyone can understand. The population of the United States is approximately 330 million not counting people not being counted for whatever reason. Today, I checked the number of Coronavirus infected US citizens. We have 435,128. We have 89,999 deaths. Would you agree that 435,128 is a relatively small number compared to 330 million people? (And remember, our number is so great because the United States is the only country in the world effectively testing for the virus.) Now I will grant you that we are trying to isolate but grocery stores, pharmacies, gas stations, restaurants, fast food places, the post office, the police, the firefighters, healthcare workers, and many office setting businesses are still operating. And if you leave the Villages, you will see plenty of vehicles on the Turnpike, 95, 4, and every other highway/road. So if herd immunity was not occurring, wouldn't the number of infected citizens be skyrocketing since millions of Americans are not isolating either by necessity or choice? The fact is that many American citizens will not get the Coronavirus but still be positive for the virus. Their bodies will build antibodies to protect them from showing the dangerous symptoms of this virus. Herd Immunity is a fact and no matter what you say to the contrary, you cannot change the natural selection process of nature. Just ain't gonna happen!

We, the US, do not have 90K deaths. We have about 14K deaths.

Sorry. You are correct. I was looking at worldwide numbers for deaths and US numbers for infections. My mistake. Thank you for the correction.

Hew was on a roll, don't confuse him with the facts:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Do you feel better now that you have added a significant contribution to the discussion?

How exactly did Bill gates become an expert on this virus?

It's pretty clear from some of the comments that many of the people commenting on this thread do not, or did not, want to understand what I said in my original post. I said nothing at all to the effect that we should sacrifice old, vulnerable people.

To the contrary, I said that vulnerable people (regardless of age) should self isolate while allowing those who are least vulnerable carry on activities as usual. This way, the vast majority of people who are least at risk of serious complications from CV can go ahead with their jobs and lives.

If they catch CV, they will very likely have mild to no symptoms and be totally over it in 2 or 3 weeks. At that point, they will no longer be spreading the CV "germs" and won't be a danger to anyone... not even the more vulnerable people. In this way, the overwhelming majority of healthy people of the US will have been exposed to and recovered from the CV in a fairly short period of time (a couple of months) and won't be in danger of transmitting the disease to others.

However, the current plan that we are on of having nearly everyone (including the young and healthy) practicing social distancing is only going to guarantee that the risk of exposure to CV is going to drag on for month after month after month. This will greatly extend the time that the vulnerable will have to practice self isolation. And, of course, it is bringing considerable economic hardship to huge portions of our population.

Personally, the financial aspect is hardly affecting me at all and won't affect me much even if it goes on for years. I'll do just fine, but I hate to see it bankrupt millions and millions of the economically vulnerable in our country and weaken our country vis-a-vis the rest of the world. Printing money is not a viable long term substitute for production and economic activity.

Precisely! Some posters seem to be challenging me personally and implying that I don’t care about the deaths. Nothing could be further from the truth. All I am saying is that herd immunity is not a new idea. Herd immunity is effective and like it or not, herd immunity is currently under way during this virus outbreak. Further, we should be thankful that herd immunity works with the human body developing antibodies to combat things like Coronavirus. The day that herd immunity doesn’t apply, the human race will end. Posters on this thread can try to kill the messenger but the message cannot be killed. There will be no miracle cure for Coronavirus in the coming weeks and hope for a successful vaccine will take many months to many years. In the meantime, one must hope that they develop some natural immunity with limited to no symptoms like is currently happening around the world. Trust me here, my wife and I are nearing 70 years of age. We’re isolating as best as we can but eventually, isolation must end as life goes on.

Considering that almost every resident of The Villages is in the high risk category, being over 60 and compromised, then your options will be to risk the lives of all, with survival of the fittest being the outcome , or, since all are high risk, all in The Villages are isolated and cut off from each other and the rest of the world. Take your choice.

And how do you determine who is the least risk? This virus seems to prey on the weak and elderly but 40% of the patients in hospitals with CV are under 50 years old. Unfortunately, our lifestyles make us more vulnerable to morbid outcomes. Over 30% of Americans are obese, High blood pressure, diabetes, cancer, heart disease. The viral load has a lot to do with outcome. Healthcare workers have high exposure with serious complications and death.
You say your finances won’t be affected by long-term isolation but your quality of life will be. Aside from the isolation, think of the impact from large scale loss of workers who maintain your electric grid, your water supply, your garbage disposal, your food supply, your schools, your government, your police and fire department, your healthcare. All this you take for granted.

Do you have a source for the data comment about hospitalizations for those under the age of 50? Even if true, hospitalization doesn't necessarily mean death or permanent injury. Sure, there are some people in all age groups who are affected by CV, but the primary victims with serious outcomes are the elderly with compromised immune systems. During normal times, we have about 100 people per day in the US killed in automobile accidents, and many more times that number severely injured, but we don't close down the highways.

As to your comment about water supply workers, police, food supply workers, etc, I'm not taking anything for granted. We definitely NEED these people to continue to function in anything resembling a normal society. That's why we can't just shut the country down and keep it shut down for month after month. We've GOT to get back to work soon for EVERYONE'S sake. Even the people who are self isolating in their own homes NEED these essential services.