I think the dialogue should be about why would a walker or biker need to jump out of the way?
We need to at some point recognize the issues being addressed or not is the small perecetage of golf cart drivers behavior is the root cause.....and until and or if that is changed the safety efforts will have little or no impact as it is the major unsafe contributor.

I ride at 19 mph. I have a pedal assist ebike. I feel safer the faster I go. Carts don't pass me very often because I don't hold them up. I'm uncomfortable on BV even at 19 mph when I get squeezed by a car or truck going 35 mph.

Agree on both counts.

I was playing in the men's tourney about 3 months ago. I hit a 30 foot putt and as it was about to drop, I jumped in the air in excitement. I pulled a calf muscle. How pathetic that I now need to stretch before putting. How dumb can I get? I'm not young enough to spontaneously jump anymore so now I don't when I putt. I'm not going to stop putting.

I'm afraid to play pickle ball. I think I will instructively do something stupid trying to return a ball that would be routine for me before. I'm growing into my deteriorating body.

You are not going to change the dumb things people like me do. Just look at the gate videos. Some older people more easily panic under pressure.

I pick and choose what's safest for me. It's not a matter of rights or expecting someone else's behavior to change.

Based on your thesis of personal responsibility, there would be no need for safety belts in cars because we all drive responsibly. There would be no need for traffic signals or lane markings on the highways. There would be no need for warning labels on products because we are do the right thing and use products correctly. But we don't.

Safety devices, warning labels, traffic lane markings, etc. are there to protect us from others, as well as ourselves.

My post is/was/has been with/about driving golf carts in The Villages.
I do believe there are differing personal responsibilities for the various conveyances. There may be some commonalities but I do not think one would extrapolate that what is appropriate one is therefore applicable to all the others...i.e. planes, trains, automobiles and golf carts. That is me.

You are obviously free to assume what you will except for assigning/assuming my intents.

Side stripping of the golf cart path
 

I think the comparisons are absolutely valid, especially the ones related to markings and other safety features on our road systems.

You need to "own the lane" in order to avoid being squeezed by cars. That is part of cycling 101. I ride BV and Morse regularly and don't have issues. The one time I rode the MMPs I had concerns. Again, the majority of serious cyclists prefer the roads for safety reasons and the quality of the ride. I am sure you like your motorized bike but the majority of serious cyclists are their own engines, are clipped in to their pedals, and having to stop and unclip at every Village entrance is not something most people want to do. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Let me make sure I am clear on what I am reading. It is your position that someone who speeds on the highways, used power equipment in an unsafe manner, drinks and drives, on-and-on, should/will change up all of their bad habits/attitudes when they get behind the wheel of a golf cart and becasue they should/will do this, extra safety measures are not needed?

If you are cycling on the MMPs at 10 mph then you may not feel too threatened but I still believe it is a dangerous place to be. If you like to ride at 20 mph the MMPs are not a place you want to be.

Unless I am riding an e-bike at 19 mph. Is that correct? As a serious biker you probably experienced taking over a lane in the villages and still having someone pass you on your left and getting too close to your shoulder just to make their point.

You are not a cyclist so I have no clue what you should be doing. I am a cyclist and the MMPs is not a place where most serious cyclists ride. The reason is because of safety and it is not a quality ride. You can try to be clever and parse this any which way you want but it is true.

I am not a serious biker, but do ride my bike for exercise. I do not use the MMPs because I feel they are to dangerous for bikers, especially at night or early mornings. To many blind curves and you can't see the edge. Seems like a good place for some edge markings

I would much rather use the residential streets. I have my routes mapped out where I can get my rides in without using the MMP.

I think you two are arguing the same side of the coin. The MMPs are not a safe place to bike.

Exactly. There are too many places where head on collisions can happen, with carts, walkers, and other cyclists. The tunnels and the Village entrances are problematic if you are clipped into your pedals. The residential streets are good as well as the roads with bike lanes. If you are a strong rider, BV and Morse are fine but a rear facing flashing light and rear view mirror are really needed. The roundabouts require caution as people sometimes merge into the circle without looking.

I agree with everything you just said.

I fully respect your opinion, and agree that most of the bikers you describe prefer the road. I can see a group of road cyclists, grouped across the lane...claiming the lane...feeling pretty safe on roads like in The Villages. I've been part of such a group. That being said...

I personally might try to think of another word other than "serious" to describe this group of cyclists though. I still consider myself a serious cyclist in the sense that I do it very regularly and do it for exercise, not just casually taking a joy ride. One big difference is that I now most often do it alone and on a hybrid bicycle...on the MMPs.

I would never feel safe on a road like Buena Vista or Morse riding alone, no matter what kind of bike I rode or how fast I traveled or how much I claimed the lane. To me, trying to claim the lane as a lone cyclists is just ticking off lots of automobile drivers. Of course almost all will avoid hitting you. But it only takes one at those kinds of speeds to cause a serious...life-threatening...problem.

Just to present the other perspective, when I ride the MMP, I take certain precautions that are very routine and do not effect the enjoyment or training aspect of my ride...

On typical full width section of path, I keep a good speed. Carts approaching from the rear who need to pass me are not uncommon, but not that frequent either. With no opposing traffic, I simply stay to the right and feel no threat as the cart passes. I may even slow just a bit to make the pass quicker. If there is approaching traffic, I make sure I have a section of grass to ride on for a short period if necessary. It rarely is. My hybrid handles the grass just fine.

As I approach a divided, narrower section of path, I check if any carts are approaching from the rear. If so, and I judge that I cannot make it through the divided section before they catch me (option 1), I slow as needed and ride on the grass a bit, making it very clear to the approaching cart it is clear to pass before the divide (option 2).

And after a couple years of riding, I have yet to have a situation where I couldn't easily adjust my ride to have a brief grass "enable-an-easy-pass" section as needed.

For tunnels and other similar situations, simple common sense precautions are of course necessary. But I've never seen these as problems. The change of grade, gear change requirements, etc. just add a bit of variety to the ride.

Well, there's my two cents. As a lone rider, I would never feel as safe on the road as I do on the MMPs...with or without striping of any kind.

(I realize now that this is a bit off-the-op topic. Please accept my apology and take the content of this post FWIW. :) )

Yes, occasionally that happens. It is a pretty cowardly thing to do. I do know people who have taken down license plate numbers and called the Sheriff. I believe there is a law on the books about intimidating cyclists.

I agree that it is safer to ride in a group on the roads, witnesses are good ;-).

I agree with that so much that at the end I had to check the author. I thought I wrote it or was quoted. I am not a serious biker. I get very little exercise with my bike and I bike alone. If there were a group that had hybrids I would love to tag along.

Totally agree. I consider myself a somewhat serious biker. I clip in, have no trouble on the MMPs. Of course, like you, I try to keep to the right as much as possible. I never try to own the lane. I do fine with the tunnels. They actually provide a good break in the steady pace of normal riding. I rarely need to unclip. I do slow to minimum speed many times, adding some balancing technique to my ride. I also climb the tunnel ramp with as much acceleration as I can muster. My wife and I refer to them as "stages" and frequently race to the top. It really does provide substantial additional fitness benefits in my opinion. I have been yelled at to slow down by a cart driver that wanted to pass me. I obliged. He thanked me as he passed. All is good. The own the lane mentality is, imo, why so many people resent bikers. And it's too bad that all bikers have to suffer this resentment because of the few. Own the lane at your peril.

"Owning the lane" is a fundamental safety issue that is promoted by bike groups and law enforcement agencies whenever riding on substandard (width wise) roads. Serious riders practice this routinely on substandard roads (as we have in The Villages). To do otherwise is dangerous. Since you apparently don't see the value in this, and apparently believe you know better than law enforcement and biking groups, I suggest you stay on the MMPs.

On a mmp you can hug the right and if there is grass still have a place to bail out. The paths are debris free. On the road all the garbage including what falls off the utility trucks ends up next to the curb. That's where you get flats or run into a cutoff 2x4. It's threatening at times and counter intuitive but you are safer in the middle of the right lane if there is no shoulder. Just an opinion not an expert even though like many I've been riding since I was a little boy.

I ride with the bike club occasionally on the roads and feel safe on these excursions. When alone I tend to stay on the MM paths. I do take the lane on occasion to ensure my safety. I do this when I am riding around blind curves and also coming to gates. I found if I rode to the far right in these situations some carts would attempt to pass me even though they couldn't see around the curve or had time to pass me before a gate. Taking the lane by riding in the center of the right lane blocked golf carts from passing me in these unsafe situations. All the rest of the time I ride to the far right so carts can easily pass me. I also slow down when the path divides into separate lanes so a cart can get ahead of me as I don't move over once in these narrow lanes. I move at a fast pace of 16 to 25 mph. I have no problems with cart drivers when I follow this program. When it is safe I always let the carts pass me if they want to and are going fast enough to get by me safely.

Not sure if you referencing certain areas, but most of The Villages roads are not substandard.

PB - I suspect biker is unable to remember which villages in which country he is discussing. The roadways here are better than most in the US, except for the rotaries, of course, which few properly use.

Misunderstandings often interfere with communication. The biker knows where he lives. "Substandard" roads refers to roads like Morse and Buena Vista that are narrower than wider "standard" roads. These narrower roads do not have enough room for a bicyclist to be passed by a car with at least three feet of clearance. That is why the bicyclist needs to ride in the middle of these narrow lanes to stop cars from trying to squeeze by. To pass the bike the car would move over to the other lane.

Every year, Auburn hosts "The Great Race" which is essentially a mini triathlon. (Trivia---it is named after Captain Miles Keogh, a native Auburnian who is buried at Fort Hill Cemetery about 500 yards from my house. His horse, Commanche, was the only US Army survivor of Little Big Horn.) Anyway, I digress. For about a month prior to the race, our streets are loaded with cyclists practicing/training. I have no problem if they want to own the road, I'm in a better position to look out for their safety than they are. However, not everyone feels that way. I wish they did, because I occasionally ride a bike as well, but they don't. So consider this before getting too committed to "owning the road"
1) Cars have to SHARE the road, golf carts have SHARE the road, so a lot of drivers don't think a cyclist should OWN the road
2) When push comes to shove, they am driving a 4600 pound SUV, you are driving a 20 pound bicycle, so who REALLY owns the road

Back to the striping of the golf cart paths. How about some street lights? Maybe the stripes and reflectors need more illumination. Also the golf cart headlights point straight ahead and when you come around a corner the lights do not lilluminate the cart path. Golf cart street lights would add a nice small town feel to the paths. Something to think about. :wave:

golf cart paths are on the golf courses which are not played at night!!

Thought about it...NO!

Would you be willing to be assessed a special fee per month for the small town look....say $100 per month or more?

Maybe I just responded to a bait post:confused:

I was kidding. Please excuse me!

Maybe that is way some bicyclists look at it, but I assure, Morse and Buena Vista are not substandard roads.

Some roads...especially interstates and some other high-level roads...may have slightly wider lanes, but that does not make Morse and Buena Vista substandard. Morse and Buena Vista are arterial roads, most likely considered minor arterial roads compared to urban areas. And their cross-section...lane widths, shoulders, etc....easily meet and exceed minimum standards.

Minimum lane width to meet the three-feet-of-clearance criterion is roughly...
* Width for operation of a bicycle = 4 feet (FDOT NHWA)
* Width of average full size sedan = ~6.5 feet (Some are wider)
* Safe clearance criterion = 3 feet
* Total = 13.5 feet minimum lane width

Few roads satisfy this requirement.

Roads do not have to be 13.5 feet to be considered standard by any accepted road design measure. Twelve (12) feet is a very standard lane width for arterial roads, with lanes down to 10 feet considered standard under many conditions.

While I haven't measured them, I'm confident Morse and Buena Vista easily meet these requirements.

1. Do you even own a golf cart?
2. It is about the money!

:pray:

Morse, Buena Vista, El Cameno, Stillwater have been measured and the lane is only 11 feet wide. Substandard in Florida.

Side stripping of the golf cart path
 

My guess is you've never driven much on 2 lane country roads which tend to be narrow yet have high speed limits. I seldom had difficulty riding a bike on them (back when I rode a bike) and would never have thought of riding in the middle of the lane to stop cars from squeezing by. Just another example of entitlement ideology. We share, you own.

Reread my post. I referenced the width. "Substandard" does not refer to the condition of the road, only the width.

Actually BV and Morse are substandard with regard to width. A car and a bike, with the required 3 feet of clearance, cannot coexist in the same lane.

Reread Polar Bear's post above. I'll rely on the expertise of a professional engineer, thank you.

The term is "owning the lane", not "owning the road". This is necessary under some circumstances to prevent a car from squeezing you into the curb. The classic example is when riding on a 2-lane road with a double solid line on a curve. Some people will try to pass you if they think they squeeze into the lane with you as opposed to swinging out into the other lane. This is a dangerous situation and is typically avoided by moving left so anyone attempting to pass you has to move into the other lane - something they will hopefully not do on a curve with a double solid line. Riding to the extreme right of the lane is a dangerous way to ride under certain circumstances.

Call law enforcement and ask whether those roads are substandard with regard to width and whether a car, a bike, and the required 3 feet of clearance can coexist in the same lane. Here is a hint: they can't.