And this relates to the striping issue....how? Never mind. Almost everybody in this thread already knows the answer...it doesn't!

I like the result of the MMP Discussion Group. I think markings at turns and medians and other potential obstructions will help day or night. Now, they have to follow up with data collection to see if there is a reduction in accidents, especially at those sites. Maybe then we can have further discussion of striping with Villages data to back it up.

I really did not like the idea of each CDD deciding how and what they were going to do. It could really make for an ugly situation where some paths are center striped and some are side striped and may be some have both. Whatever it is, it should be consistent throughout.

How could they collect the data if it's voluntary?
Maybe with cameras? But who is going to look at all the video?
I thought about this quite a bit.
It's easy to put a camera at the gate and when the gate breaks look at the tape.

:agree:

Sorry, I can't see this as solely a speed issue. Are you suggesting that a driver who goes out on I-75 at 80 mph can handle a golf cart at 20 mph but not 23 mph? Just as that driver would adjust his/her speed for darkness/fog/rain on the interstate, they have to adjust on the MMPs. And just as heavier traffic dictates speed on the highway, the same is true on the paths. IF someone is not adjusting for these conditions, that just makes them a bad driver, and 3 mph of speed is not going to help them (or the rest of us). A lot of speed limits on roadways are somewhat arbitrary and in some cases political as well. Why 20 mph on a MMP and not 25 or 15? Personally, I like my cars with excess horsepower. If I do have to pass some clown going 40 mph on a 55 mph 2 lane road, I want to get out there when safe and get back on my side ASAP. I imagine the same principle applies to golf carts, although in my limited MMP experience I have never passed anyone. But if I do, I'd be a little fearful that my vehicle couldn't pass fast enough if "governed". On the highway, there usually is a little difference in your speed when passing as opposed to cruising along.

Then why even pass?

Why not?

When you encounter, lets say on a 2 lane section of US 301 posted at 60 mph, someone ahead of you going 35 mph you stay behind them for the next 30 miles???? If so, I applaud your patience, if not your blood pressure control. Likewise, although I have not yet had the pleasure, if I get behind someone driving a path at 11 mph and it's safe, I would not give a second thought to passing them especially on a 3 or 4 mile trip. How about you? would you stay behind either of these drivers? How about everyone else? I know, I know, we're retired, what's the rush. But there are a lot of things I'd rather do in retirement instead of crawling down a highway or a MMP. For most of us who have lived in New York all our lives, we'd rather eat shoe leather than drive behind those "drivers". Reminder, I'm not talking about those going 57 in a 60 zone or 18 on a MMP, I'm talking about the road litter that is so ridiculous that you just want to get a bulldozer and plow them off to the side.

This thread has ben on the topic of side striping, with a few diversions to stripping. If we all want to talk about regulating the speed of a cart, let's do this in its own thread. I am sure this topic will fire-up a lot of folks and the topic deserves a specific thread.

You're right. You will not get data on all incidents, but, with all the publicity MMP safety has garnered, there may be an upturn in reported cases. Perhaps through the POA or VHA or even TOTV. Previously, the POA collected data only on incidents with personal injury.

Also, those who have concerns about certain areas being especially difficult or dangerous can report if they feel the markings help or not.

Probably, but side striping was introduced as a safety idea. Part of the argument against striping was based on the concept that it would not improve safety, but regulating speed by impairing a vehicle would, in the belief that speed was the major cause of safety issue, not visibility. So while it probably deserves it's own thread, it also has relevance to this one.

Let me ask you a question....Mleeja.

Do you think a center line would accomplish the same thing as side stripping?

I was referring to the MMP not a highway. Comparing the two is apples and oranges.

Poster said he was fearful.

It's been beat to death on more than one thread.

How so??? In both cases your travel time is essentially doubling due to the ineptness of the other driver, who should probably be driving a tricycle in the first place.

I'm with Mleeja...very little relevance. Speed limits never have and never should (imo of course) be a factor in the performance of any vehicle.

Safe passing is a legitimate reason to moderately and briefly exceed the speed limit. Emergencies is another. But even without these situations, governing the vehicle based on a somewhat arbitrary, variable, and very possibly changing speed limit is a very bad idea.

So, in other words, you agree with me.

About the need to pass safely? Sure.

Agreed. Which is the main reason it makes little sense to put governors on carts at 20 mph when that it is the speed limit. Would you buy a car that could never go more than 65 MPH?

Are you directing that comment to me? I've expressed my agreement that vehicle speed governors is a very bad idea. :)

I am a supporter of striping. I've made this quite clear in my comments. (I have ZERO association with the POA) The issue generating the discussion is side striping. Do I think a center stripe could accomplish the same as side striping, yes and no. A center stripe will certainly provide a reference for the driver in darkness and rainy weather while defining the "lanes". Where the center stripe has its shortcomings is when you have on coming headlights blinding you. You will naturally look away from the light. Having the side stripe will provide a point of reference for the right hand side of the MMP.

The reflective nature of the stripes will define the path ahead of you far more than just with your headlights on the current MPPs. On several occasions I have offered to meet anyone at 6:30 in the morning. We would take a drive down the MMP on El Camino, then down Enrique Drive where the cart lane is marked with a reflective stripe to demonstrate how much better and further you can see the cart lane. To date no takers....

In utopia, we would have both center and side striping. In TV, except for district 4 where there is a center stripe, we have neither.

The latest plan by TV is a good alternative. I will support this plan as it will improve safety on the MMPs.

The agreed part was for you. The governor comment was for the one who originally suggested it. The car comment was for general consumption

Ahh. :)

345 posts. Does everyone agree on center striping as a compromise? :popcorn:

I don't think you will get agreement on any type of striping. There are the "personal responsibility" folks that will not support any safety improvements to the paths.

Have you all read the proposal from, I believe, a District 6 Board member on her suggestions for improving cart safety?

I'm not in favor of either, but if the three supervisors must recklessly spend our money in CDD 8, I'd rather see center stripes to help keep the visually impaired from crossing the center and crashing into my wife or I. A crash off the side of a MMP into a bush is more survivable to most than a head on into another cart. To the "Rogue 3" - please use the common sense God gave you and stop the nonsense.

I've read all these arguments pro and con for side striping, center striping, etc. and how it is going to keep people from driving off the paths, cause fewer accidents, etc. Many of the streets in The Villages have no side striping, they just have the concrete rain gutters that mark the edges of the road, much like the concrete edges on the MMP's. How come people aren't in an uproar to have all this striping on our roads. Do we often read how people drive off the roads because there is no side striping? Do we read how often people cross the center lines of our roads because there are no center stripes. I'm not talking about our main roads like Buena Vista or Morse, I'm talking about the majority of our village roads once you are inside the gates. I just find this perplexing.

Couldn't find it, do you know where I can?

That was an excellent response. Thank you.

Striping with side and center lines will turn the Multimodal paths into golf cart highways. It will make the paths less safe for walkers, joggers, and bicyclists. Unfortunately, the only concerns expressed here are about golf carts.

Can you explain the added dangers for bikers and walkers?

Golf carts may hesitate to cross the center line and try to squeeze by a walker or bicyclist, especially if a cart is coming in the opposite direction. This happens quite often now to bicyclists on narrow roads when cars try to squeeze by. That is why bike groups have to "take the lane" on narrow multi lane roads such as Morse and Buena Vista as there is not enough room for a car and a bicycle. They may hit the bicyclist, jogger, or walker. Golf carts may also do more tight maneuvers. They might stay in their lane as long as possible and go around a walker, jogger, or bicyclist at the last moment and then return to their lane too quickly after they think they have cleared the slower moving people. Cars do this all the time on highways when they pass other cars or trucks. They pull back into the lane too soon after passing.

Let's face it, joggers, walkers, and bicyclists are already low men on the totem pole and if they put all these lines on the paths it will become more obvious who these paths are for.

I'm a biker, and I think a centerline will make it safer for bikers. Now, many times, an approaching cart from the other direction will not hesitate to come into my side of the path to cut the curve or to pas others. I have had some very close calls with this scenario. the "expert" engineer that did the study stated that he witnessed the MMP in CCD4 with the centerline. He said that carts passing others crossed over the centerline and quickly got back in their proper lane as opposed to crossing over and then meandering down the wrong side of the lane for a greater distance. That was his logic for the centerline being unsafe!

I believe that was one of the reasons expressed by the engineering firm the districts hired for a survey or whatever they called it for not striping. Striping the paths will give cart drivers an even more belief the paths are for golf carts only. I'm sure all of us have or will witness joggers having to jump away to avoid getting hit by the cart driver determined not to be impeded by others for whatever reason .:shrug:

That is one of the reasons why most serious cyclists will not ride on the MMPs - too dangerous.

There always seems a need for an ongoing reminder that:

CArt paths are the paths on the golf course.

MMP are the paths connecting the rest of TV on which along with walkers, runners, bikers, golf carts are ALLOWED!!

I find the ongoing, seems like forever, discussions about the MMPs and what is needed for safety if unduly focused on golf carts.

The other misconception that is ongoing is for the few supporters that there are, they think the striping is going to change the behavior of the golf cart driver. It will not.

Bikers taking the lane is a rub for some Villagers in carts. That's too bad. That's not too much to ask. Carts should get used to their presence and wait until it's safe to pass. Eventually they will. Bike riding has been gaining in popularity for years and the MMP's are so smooth and litter free.

I think the MMP's are currently dangerous and stripes will not change that for walkers. I would look for a sidewalk. If you don't feel safe walking with a child on an MMP, why would you feel safe walking without one? Can you jump out of the way as quickly as a child? Land on your feet? Or if you do hit the ground not break anything?

On a bike most seniors can maneuver almost as quickly as they always have. The MMP's feel safe to me on a bike.

If you are cycling on the MMPs at 10 mph then you may not feel too threatened but I still believe it is a dangerous place to be. If you like to ride at 20 mph the MMPs are not a place you want to be.