Talk of The Villages Florida
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Talk of The Villages Florida (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/)
-   The Villages, Florida, General Discussion (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/)
-   -   Sinkhole near Cane Garden (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/sinkhole-near-cane-garden-48578/)

CTgolfer 02-13-2012 09:56 AM
Sinkhole and Catastrophic Ground Collapse Insurance
 
I want to thank all those on the forum who suggested we check our home insurance policies to see if we have coverage for both Sinkhole and catastrophic ground collapse. I am happy to say our policy through Security First (purchased through Allstate near Wallmart on 466) covers both.

KEVIN & JOSIE 02-14-2012 03:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Advogado (Post 452324)
Here is a very good POA article on the subject: http://www.poa4us.org/bulletins_file...etin201105.pdf

However, since it is from last May, it may not be up to date on the availability of insurance coverage.
Thanks for info. Helpful..

GatorFan 02-14-2012 06:56 PM
The loss at Cane Garden would be covered under Catastrophic Ground Collapse not sinkhole.

angiefox10 02-14-2012 06:59 PM
Oh CRAP!!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorFan (Post 453367)
The loss at Cane Garden would be covered under Catastrophic Ground Collapse not sinkhole.
I'm pretty sure I don't have that!!!!

aljetmet 02-14-2012 07:18 PM
Catastrophic Ground Collapse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorFan (Post 453367)
The loss at Cane Garden would be covered under Catastrophic Ground Collapse not sinkhole.
I thought I read today that a house must be condemned to collect under Catastrophic Ground Collapse. Also thought that every one has Catastrophic Ground Collapse in their insurance but not necessarily sink hole insurance.

I guess I have to Google this again just to make sure.

Tickled_pink 02-14-2012 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aljetmet (Post 453378)
I thought I read today that a house must be condemned to collect under Catastrophic Ground Collapse. Also thought that every one has Catastrophic Ground Collapse in their insurance but not necessarily sink hole insurance.

I guess I have to Google this again just to make sure.
I think you are correct. At least that is how I understand it.

aljetmet 02-14-2012 07:24 PM
State of Florida primer on sinkhole
 
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/geology/g...khole_2008.pdf

pauld315 02-14-2012 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorFan (Post 453367)
The loss at Cane Garden would be covered under Catastrophic Ground Collapse not sinkhole.
Was the house condemned and ordered vacated ? That is one of the criteria that must be met for Catastrophic Ground Collapse to pay anything

Below is from Catastrophic Ground Cover Collapse Coverage

Catastrophic ground cover collapse, on the other hand, covers only a small portion of damages caused by sinkhole activity. Under Florida law, catastrophic ground cover collapse includes geological activity resulting in the following:
  • Abrupt loss of ground cover
  • A depression in the ground clearly visible to the naked eye
  • Structural damage to the building, including the foundation
  • Government condemnation of the insured structure and an order to vacate the premises
By the express terms of the coverage, catastrophic ground cover collapse only covers damages when the insured property is condemned by a governmental agency and ordered vacated.

GatorFan 02-14-2012 10:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aljetmet (Post 453378)
I thought I read today that a house must be condemned to collect under Catastrophic Ground Collapse. Also thought that every one has Catastrophic Ground Collapse in their insurance but not necessarily sink hole insurance.

I guess I have to Google this again just to make sure.
Do you think the county building department let them stay in home? We spoke to our claims office today and was advised catastrophic ground collapse would be the peril covered under and it looks from pictures, repairs would be done.

CarGuys 02-14-2012 10:57 PM
Both
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by angiefox10 (Post 453371)
I'm pretty sure I don't have that!!!!
We have both!:popcorn:

thistrucksforyou 02-19-2012 08:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by graciegirl (Post 450806)
If there was sinkhole activity near your home it very well may not be reported here by the homeowner. However, it would seem that legally that you would have to make that disclosure on selling unless it happened in an easement nearby.

It is something that you can choose to protect yourself from by buying insurance or save the money so as to repair or replace the damage unless it would be the horrible scenario where the whole house collapsed into a hole and I don't think that has happened....or has it? I have only been here four years.

To the person who said there had been sinkhole activity in two places in the village of Caroline, which is pretty close to LSL, (for those not familiar to the area,) how bad was the damage, and was it repaired and how was it repaired? It helps to know this for those who worry. Also IF there is activity in your village, does it make sinkhole insurance go up or become unavailable? Does anyone know about the insurance issue?

When the ground is prepared for construction, huge pipes are placed underground and there is always some settling to the ground that has been disturbed during construction. Sand is a new element for many of us. Can an engineer tell us exactly how sinkholes are fixed?

And here are hugs for all who are worrying. Of course it is our life savings in this property. We need to seek more information about insurance protection and repair and rate of occurance.

I know that the vacant lots around us are regularly run on back and forth by huge trucks and large equipment here to do other stuff and I am guessing that may be done to compact the sand.
After talking with my realtor agent there, I was told any activity on any adjacent lot of sink hole activity has to be disclosed, and if you are in an active area you can not get insurance for it....I only ask this because I was considering buying a home close to Cain Gardens...He is going over there to check it out for me.....

Russ_Boston 02-19-2012 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aljetmet (Post 453378)
I thought I read today that a house must be condemned to collect under Catastrophic Ground Collapse. Also thought that every one has Catastrophic Ground Collapse in their insurance but not necessarily sink hole insurance.

I guess I have to Google this again just to make sure.
Just got my final insurance two days ago. It happened to be the same agent as the one for the Cane house. She indicated that this incident would be covered under Catastrophic coverage. Sinkhole coverage is for the more common problem where a sinkhole causes settlement damage that may or may not be visible by looking at the ground but causing issues with the home that can be costly to fix. Also she indicated that as of a few months ago it is now almost impossible for her to get people written up for sinkhole coverage (she would need inspections ($$) to pass etc.). Catastrophic ground collapse coverage is provided by all providers. Fortunately we are just rolling over our current coverage (we had vacancy protection since we were not there yet) so we have both catastrophic and sinkhole.

Just FYI: We went through Sumter/Marion insurance with ASI as our provider.

carol_piirto 02-19-2012 05:35 PM
sinkholes
 
Everone needs sinkhole and or catastrophic ground cover insurance (and you probably do already ) if you live anywhere in Central Florida. Because you have one sinkhole, there is no guarantee that it will continue to expand. From what I understand, the engineers check out the depth of the cavern below the interior and exteriors of the houses and the perimeter of the cavern and determine the element of safety, the need for pylons & concrete etc.

In the case of the Cane Garden sinkhole, the engineers, I hear, have determined there is no chance of expansion. What you see is what they got.

Let's hope for no more sinkhole surprises! Thank goodness no one was hurt.

Fourpar 02-19-2012 10:32 PM
[quote=carol_piirto;455854]Everone needs sinkhole and or catastrophic ground cover insurance (and you probably do already ) if you live anywhere in Central Florida. Because you have one sinkhole, there is no guarantee that it will continue to expand. From what I understand, the engineers check out the depth of the cavern below the interior and exteriors of the houses and the perimeter of the cavern and determine the element of safety, the need for pylons & concrete etc.

In the case of the Cane Garden sinkhole, the engineers, I hear, have determined there is no chance of expansion. What you see is what they got.

Let's hope for no more sinkhole surprises! Thank goodness no one was hurt.[/quote

...Well, that's good news. I wonder if a prospective buyer of one of those houses would share that warm and fuzzy feeling????

graciegirl 02-20-2012 07:17 AM
[quote=Fourpar;456011]
Quote:
Originally Posted by carol_piirto (Post 455854)
Everone needs sinkhole and or catastrophic ground cover insurance (and you probably do already ) if you live anywhere in Central Florida. Because you have one sinkhole, there is no guarantee that it will continue to expand. From what I understand, the engineers check out the depth of the cavern below the interior and exteriors of the houses and the perimeter of the cavern and determine the element of safety, the need for pylons & concrete etc.

In the case of the Cane Garden sinkhole, the engineers, I hear, have determined there is no chance of expansion. What you see is what they got.

Let's hope for no more sinkhole surprises! Thank goodness no one was hurt.[/quote

...Well, that's good news. I wonder if a prospective buyer of one of those houses would share that warm and fuzzy feeling????
It appears to be Central Florida's version of Cincinnati's basement flooding....but much less often occuring. It is a bad thing, but not blameable on people.

VMI-74 02-20-2012 08:01 AM
Sink Hole Coverage
 
Just bought a villa in Hemingway with my Mom. We have a house also bought 3 years ago. We have sink hole coverage but were told 2 weeks after closing that insurance companies were no longer writing sink hole coverage in 32162 zip code. They were offering it prior to our closing and 2 weeks later, NOT! If anyone knows of a company that will add this coverage, please let me know.

Thanks Kathy and Ruth

:22yikes:

tv2016 02-24-2012 09:05 PM
I'm buying a house in Sunset Pointe and have only found one company that offers sinkhole coverage (in addition to the required catastrophic coverage). Does anyone have any experience with Southern Insurance Group or Universal Property and Casualty Insurance Company?

A few other companies will inspect the house for $70 after the policy is in place and then decide if they are willing to offer sinkhole coverage. I think most decide they are not willing.

KEVIN & JOSIE 03-01-2012 02:29 PM
Was the sinkhole filled and repaired, or are there people working on it?

Carla B 03-01-2012 04:09 PM
TV 2016:

I have no experience with claims with Universal Property & Casualty as of yet, but they are the only one we found that would insure owners of rental condos in South FL east of I-95. To me that is not a very good recommendation. They must have thousands of properties E of 95 on their rolls and a hurricane with large property losses could wipe them out.

That is what happened to Southern Family Insurance/Poe Companies a few years ago. The state had to step in and pay the claims. (Of course, the Poe family also diverted premiums to their personal accounts and declared them to be dividends But even if they hadn't raided premiums they still wouldn't have been able to cover all the losses.) Our condo association was one of the claimants following Hurricane Wilma when Southern Family/Poe went insolvent and it took some time to get a negotiated settlement with the state. The good thing is that Florida backs up these companies, the bad thing is we all pay for it in surcharges and higher premiums.

Did Universal quote a premium and did it seem out of line with quotes of companies who would write insurance, except for sinkhole?

CarGuys 03-03-2012 12:11 AM
Policy- Russ?
 
Will there be a Grandfather clause for those of us who have a paid up policy now in place?

Just wondering Russ!

shcisamax 03-03-2012 08:01 AM
I don't know if this is completely out of the question but it doesn't seem there is THAT great of an incidence in TV of sinkholes. That said, when it happens to you, it is devastating. And everyone wants the peace of mind of coverage. Is there any sort of mechanism that TV could put in place where The Villagers, themselves, contribute to a fund which would cover in the event of a sinkhole. There are how many homes? 40,000? and if everyone contributed $100 a year, that would be $4,000,000. Certainly enough to handle rebuilding 10 homes at $400,000 apiece which is probably on the high side? I am just playing with figures and really have no idea how many homes are there or what the average cost is but it just seemed ridiculous that insurance companies make us all nuts and maybe we can self insure.

Russ_Boston 03-03-2012 08:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarGuys (Post 461835)
Will there be a Grandfather clause for those of us who have a paid up policy now in place?

Just wondering Russ!
There was in my instance.

Carla B 03-03-2012 09:21 AM
I talked to someone in TV who had a sinkhole claim on their designer home. Their cost out of pocket would have been $102,000. You don't have to rebuild the entire house if it's not catastrophic ground collapse. You have to stabilize the foundation by drilling tunnels and filling them and then repairing sheetrock etc. to make the house plumb again. The house required 27+ tunnels, I believe.

Re self insurance: our condo association would have been happy to self-insure but Florida law bans condos from doing that. However, I think it would be worth exploring in TV, since these are single family homes. I just looked at our condo budget and see that we pay a total of $335,000, per year which equals $840. per owner and that only takes care of the outside and the common areas. We pay another $800+ for liability and dwelling coverage which only covers the interior.

Another thought, I was wondering how the new homes in Sanibel, Fernandina etc. are getting sinkhole coverage if most companies are no longer writing in Sumter Co. Or is it that they are not writing in zip code 32162? If so, aren't the houses south of 466A in a different zip code? Just curious.

CTgolfer 03-03-2012 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shcisamax (Post 461882)
I don't know if this is completely out of the question but it doesn't seem there is THAT great of an incidence in TV of sinkholes. That said, when it happens to you, it is devastating. And everyone wants the peace of mind of coverage. Is there any sort of mechanism that TV could put in place where The Villagers, themselves, contribute to a fund which would cover in the event of a sinkhole. There are how many homes? 40,000? and if everyone contributed $100 a year, that would be $4,000,000. Certainly enough to handle rebuilding 10 homes at $400,000 apiece which is probably on the high side? I am just playing with figures and really have no idea how many homes are there or what the average cost is but it just seemed ridiculous that insurance companies make us all nuts and maybe we can self insure.
This is one of the most ingenious ideas I've heard in a long time... wow!

shcisamax 03-03-2012 10:10 AM
I am glad you liked it. Would someone who has access to the information and an insurance acumen like to do the research?

Carla B 03-03-2012 10:22 AM
Good job for the POA, I'd think.

mac6115cd 03-04-2012 09:10 AM
Sinkholes by County
 
Found an informative site at:

Sinkhole Maps of Florida Counties

It's only for 2008, but it gives a nice summary of sinkhole locations. From what I can see, sinkholes are relatively common and insurance is highly recommended.

shcisamax 03-04-2012 10:02 AM
From what I see, there are no sink holes in TV? Did they all happen after 2008 or maybe I am not reading the map correctly..

cappyjon431 03-04-2012 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac6115cd (Post 462382)
Found an informative site at:

Sinkhole Maps of Florida Counties

It's only for 2008, but it gives a nice summary of sinkhole locations. From what I can see, sinkholes are relatively common and insurance is highly recommended.
The thing to remember is these maps only give details on reported sinkholes. Of course if a sinkhole opens up in a residential area (eg. TV) the sinkholes will be reported. But think of all that pastureland out there with unreported sinkholes. I say this because I am a cave diver and some of the best cave dives I have ever done in Florida were sinkholes (which opened up to the aquifer) in some farmers' fields that no one knew about.

The bottom line is to remember that these type of survey maps probably underreport, so the incidence is probably significantly higher.

l2ridehd 03-04-2012 10:13 AM
I believe everyone has the catastrophic insurance as that is a Florida state requirement. It's the casual damage that is the issue. Many many homes in TV have foundation cracks that may or may not be caused by sink holes. They are all caused by some type of settling. So how do you insure against that without causing your rates to skyrocket? $100 per house assumes 100% sign up which would never happen and even if it did the amount would quickly be used up by repairing settling cracks of all types. We need a solution and it has to be provided by insurance companies. Probably the best answer would be a high deductible casual damage type solution. Stop the frivolous claims but protect you against a large cost type fix. Maybe a 10K or 20K deductible.

shcisamax 03-04-2012 10:37 AM
Why do you assume at $100 you would not have 100% sign up? The people who reported the additional cost to their insurance reported twice as much. Also, I was just throwing out those figures. I have no idea if there are 40,000 homes. I just took the 85,000 (apx. population) and divided it by two...it is an avenue that might be explored. And my understanding is the 85,000 will be 110,000 in the near future. If the insurance companies are going to cover it, there is no need but if they are going to not cover it going forward, or only pay 90% on the significant damage, the villagers should look at the possibility to insure themselves. It would be definitely less expensive and better coverage. Of course, you are right about the definition of coverage. This would not be for cracks in the foundation but for a big hole on your property and associated issues..like your house goes missing. :)

GatorFan 03-04-2012 10:43 AM
This would be a question for your State representatives. The State of Florida Regulates and approves everything insurance companies in Florida do including premiums, deductibles, coverages, cat funds, guarantee funds, Citizens recoupment fees, you name it they control it.

shcisamax 03-04-2012 10:50 AM
So TV could not self insure? Set up a fund to cover sinkholes? But of course the insurance companies wouldn't be thrilled to see someone moving in on their territory and they are huge contributors to political campaigns.

OldDave 03-04-2012 10:53 AM
I've only been on here less than a week and only started thinking of moving to the Villages a bit before that. (We hope to move in summer of 2013.) I was already afraid of hurricanes, and terrified of gators. NOW it's sink holes. I appreciate all of the posts on this thread. I am puzzled about however, that only one person mentioned Citizens Property Insurance Corp. I've read this several places. This appears to be a state run agency that does provide Sink Hole coverage. (and I agree from my reading that everyone with home owners is covered for the complete eating of your house..or actually just making it unliveable.

Is there a reason no one seems to use Citizens? Is it not a good deal? Does it also cover hurricane damage? Perhaps this isn't the right thread, but is hurricane damage covered my normal homeowners in Florida, do you need something else? Do you need the federal flood insurance?

Sure appreciate any help, and I've really enjoyed meettingfolks on this site. Very friendly, helpful, and some of you are very funny...which I really enjoy.

shcisamax 03-04-2012 10:58 AM
I wonder if there is gator insurance....OldDave, I'm with you on the gator issue. Found myself on google last night learning about gators vs crocs. Glad I am not moving/living on a lake down there. I would never sleep. I was told by the sales agent that when they get to be 5 ft the gator police come and take them away. But still, with those choppers, 4 1/2 feet is going to hurt.

GatorFan 03-04-2012 11:01 AM
To set up a self insurance fund, you need State Approval and the fund is regulated by the state. I am sure insurance companies would welcome you to set up a self insurance sinkhole fund.

shcisamax 03-04-2012 11:21 AM
Too bad. I didn't even know there was a problem until this thread was posted.
Gatorfan: It's good to have someone on who really knows a lot about this. Maybe you have a suggestion or idea as to how everyone can get covered? I guess the question is: What insurance companies will cover sinkhole? for new owners.

Posh 08 03-04-2012 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shcisamax (Post 462454)
Too bad. I didn't even know there was a problem until this thread was posted.
Gatorfan: It's good to have someone on who really knows a lot about this. Maybe you have a suggestion or idea as to how everyone can get covered? I guess the question is: What insurance companies will cover sinkhole? for new owners.
On my Pro/Con list it's one of the BIG cons.

shcisamax 03-04-2012 11:26 AM
Honestly, when I went on the geo map...it only goes to 2008, it just didn't look like there was anything on there in Sumter. maybe a couple. Marion is a mess. Either I am not reading that map correctly, and if I am not, I would love someone to correct me, or the holes weren't there in 2008 or they didn't get listed.

JimJoe 03-04-2012 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shcisamax (Post 462459)
Honestly, when I went on the geo map...it only goes to 2008, it just didn't look like there was anything on there in Sumter. maybe a couple. Marion is a mess. Either I am not reading that map correctly, and if I am not, I would love someone to correct me, or the holes weren't there in 2008 or they didn't get listed.
A lot of building in Sumter county has occurred since the information was obtained for the 2008 report. Would increased building either increase the likelihood of sinkholes or the reporting of them?
JJ


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