[Steve9930]

Originally Posted by Mikeod

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think the restriction applies to the front of the house only, and only to those things that are not under the eaves. At least that's my understanding of the rules in my CDD. So, what's wrong with moving the crosses under the eaves or into the back landscaping? Keeps it within the deed restrictions and keeps the display.

The first request is good, the second may be a it more sticky. What interesting to me is all the hoopla about a tiny little cross. We have them here in Stonecrest and there is not one person here that is calling for their removal. ??????

[Challenger]

Originally Posted by Steve9930

The first request is good, the second may be a it more sticky. What interesting to me is all the hoopla about a tiny little cross. We have them here in Stonecrest and there is not one person here that is calling for their removal. ??????

Steve--

It's is not that it is a "tiny little" cross. The problem is that it is a violation of the deed restrictions. Shape and size is not the point. Ignoring violations will eventually lead to other "not so big or not so significant" violations. Precedent will cause enforcement problems eventually.

[Bogie Shooter]

Originally Posted by Challenger

Steve--

It's is not that it is a "tiny little" cross. The problem is that it is a violation of the deed restrictions. Shape and size is not the point. Ignoring violations will eventually lead to other "not so big or not so significant" violations. Precedent will cause enforcement problems eventually.

I agree!

[Bogie Shooter]

Originally Posted by Steve9930

The first request is good, the second may be a it more sticky. What interesting to me is all the hoopla about a tiny little cross. We have them here in Stonecrest and there is not one person here that is calling for their removal. ??????

Are there deed restrictions? HOA rules?

[RichardWalker]

I believe (but I am not sure) the crosses are distributed by the civic organization, The Knights of Columbus, to show support for the Christians in the Middle East.

[RichardWalker]

I say leave people alone. Don't make a big deal out of nothing.

[RichardWalker]

I've never seen any that were blue or pink, only white, so it never occurred to me pro-abortion people would be offended.

[Steve9930]

Originally Posted by Challenger

Steve--

It's is not that it is a "tiny little" cross. The problem is that it is a violation of the deed restrictions. Shape and size is not the point. Ignoring violations will eventually lead to other "not so big or not so significant" violations. Precedent will cause enforcement problems eventually.

I cannot make this any more clear. The cross is a Religious Symbol it is not a secular symbol. It would be protected under the 1st Amendment of the Constitution for Religious Freedom. Does that mean they could erect a 30 foot cross in their front yard, NO. The HOA in their Deed Restrictions could limit where in the yard it is placed, the size of the cross (Or any other Religious symbol) as long as the restriction did not but undue burden. If you search some of the rulings in the past the court makes a distinction between what is a secular symbol and a religious one. A Christmas Tree is a secular symbol. Why, because the court said people who are not Christian also have Christmas Trees. A cross is a Religious Symbol according to some of the court rulings. Protected under the 1st Amendment. It don't get any clearer the that.

[Challenger]

Originally Posted by Steve9930

I cannot make this any more clear. The cross is a Religious Symbol it is not a secular symbol. It would be protected under the 1st Amendment of the Constitution for Religious Freedom. Does that mean they could erect a 30 foot cross in their front yard, NO. The HOA in their Deed Restrictions could limit where in the yard it is placed, the size of the cross (Or any other Religious symbol) as long as the restriction did not but undue burden. If you search some of the rulings in the past the court makes a distinction between what is a secular symbol and a religious one. A Christmas Tree is a secular symbol. Why, because the court said people who are not Christian also have Christmas Trees. A cross is a Religious Symbol according to some of the court rulings. Protected under the 1st Amendment. It don't get any clearer the that.

The present practice is that moderate sized "Symbols" are permitted as long as the are "under the eaves"

Does this meet the undo burden test which you cite?

[missypie]

So I guess the Buddha statutes are next. This would make sense.

[Steve9930]

Originally Posted by Challenger

The present practice is that moderate sized "Symbols" are permitted as long as the are "under the eaves"

Does this meet the undo burden test which you cite?

In my opinion there is nothing over burdensome to request they have them under the eves of the house. But again we are not trying a real case. Its amazing what arguments can be made in court. You never know until the game is on, and it is a game.

[Barefoot]

District Court of Virginia[declared in 1985 (Dettmer v Landon, 617 F Suup 592 [E. Dst. Va.]) that Wicca is "clearly a religion for First Amendment purposes....Members of the Church sincerely adhere to a fairly complex set of doctrines relating to the spiritual aspect of their lives, and in doing so they have 'ultimate concerns' in much the same way as followers of more accepted religions. Their ceremonies and leadership structure, their rather elaborate set of articulated doctrine, their belief in the concept of another world, and their broad concern for improving the quality of life for others gives them at least some facial similarity to other more widely recognized religions." 1 This was a landmark case.

[perrjojo]

Originally Posted by Steve9930

If you read all the articles you will see there is a difference between a secular and religious item. While secular items have to do with a holiday season may be regulated by the HOA Restrictions the cross would be considered a religious symbol. No one in there right mind would want to see this brought into a court.

Well that seems logical but then I never thought it would be disallowed to pray in school.

[perrjojo]

[QUOTE=Steve9930;1364540]The answer is no. There is a difference between a sign and a religious symbol. Now another tit bit. The HOA would still have some say on the crosses. They could limit the size and where its displayed outside. As long as the HOA request is not is not over burden some. They could say they are allowed on the front door, or they are limited to 6 inches.[/QUOTE

Exactly..they are limited to under the eaves in the front yard. The problem is those that are NOT placed under the eaves.

[Bogie Shooter]

What kind of bit was that again?