substandard infrastructure? substandard infrastructure? - Page 2 - Talk of The Villages Florida

substandard infrastructure?

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  #16  
Old 12-10-2024, 09:01 AM
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So, OP - I worked for the Engineering department of the municipality I lived in up north. I'm not an engineer, but I was responsible for understanding terminology, signing off on building permits, checking fema maps, scheduling site inspections, checking photographs and CAD drawings and property renderings. I also worked for an architect for a year, and had to read the spec book and extract appropriate paragraphs from it to write specs for each project.

First and foremost, Florida is basically a huge mound of sand sitting on limestone. It is not a stable chunk of land. Think of it as an island that just hasn't yet broken off the mainland, but probably will some time within the next 10,000 years.

This is why rare and few homes have basements here. They'd collapse, because there's nothing solid surrounding them or beneath them. You're more likely to hit water before you get deep enough to pour a cement foundation in a basement in most of Florida.

The developers know this. The companies that lay sewer and irrigation pipe know this. The town and county engineers know this, and the architects know this. But they make GOOD money building. They are ALL making bank. The only people who lose out, are the homeowners. And who cares about them right? They already bought the property, they're locked into the responsibility.

Up north, we have EXTREMES of weather. Sub-zero temps and post-100 heat waves, brush fires and mirage-creating humidity. Flooding and multi-foot blizzards and ice and ice-melts. The ground is tortured seasonally up there. And yet - the pipes manage just fine for decades. The house I lived in growing up was on a street that flooded once. It was a weather issue - non-stop torrential rain for several days. People were paddling canoes down the street mostly for fun, since the schools were closed that week due to extreme weather. And yet - for over 50 years, the pipes didn't have to be replaced or repaired once.

Down here, if a gator sneezes three times in a row, somewhere in The Villages, a pipe will fail. Florida isn't THAT new of a state. It's been around for over 150 years. It's had a few minutes to figure stuff out. It has chosen not to.
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Old 12-10-2024, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npwalters View Post
Any civil engineers on this forum?

It seems like there is a report of some part of the drainage, ponds, and/or home foundations failing in The Villages quite often. Sometimes it is in areas only a few years old.

Is this normal? My neighborhood in Tennessee was over 70 years old and we did not have similar issues. Maybe it is just reported in the local newspaper more often but I really don't know. My gut says it is due to substandard building practices but I have no information to back that up.

I'd like to hear the thoughts of others with some experience in this arena.
First Google "Sinkhole map of Florida". You will see where they concentrate and they are much more prevalent near Tampa. I think it has much to do about the strata of shale and sand underneath this part of Florida. But people from time to time seem to think that the developer has failed somehow.
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Old 12-10-2024, 12:11 PM
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So to follow up. I realize that FL is basically sand and therefore the building practices must adapt. Do other communities in central FL have the same problem with failure rates?
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Old 12-10-2024, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by npwalters View Post
So to follow up. I realize that FL is basically sand and therefore the building practices must adapt. Do other communities in central FL have the same problem with failure rates?
Not sure if they had problems with pipes or not but - Water Oak down 441 was still flooded in parts as of last week, following Milton. They have a man-made lack in the middle of their community and that water was in peoples' houses, covering lanais and patios, and blocking the road for WELL over a week after the storm.

It looked to me like they simply didn't have any plans for flood drainage when it was built. Most of the community is sitting in a geographical depression with a body of water in the middle of it. There was no "downhill" where the water could go, so it just started climbing up.

Also a matter of bad planning, substandard regulations OR neglect in enforcing regulations (I don't know which it was).
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Old 12-10-2024, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby View Post
Not sure if they had problems with pipes or not but - Water Oak down 441 was still flooded in parts as of last week, following Milton. They have a man-made lack in the middle of their community and that water was in peoples' houses, covering lanais and patios, and blocking the road for WELL over a week after the storm.

It looked to me like they simply didn't have any plans for flood drainage when it was built. Most of the community is sitting in a geographical depression with a body of water in the middle of it. There was no "downhill" where the water could go, so it just started climbing up.

Also a matter of bad planning, substandard regulations OR neglect in enforcing regulations (I don't know which it was).
The challenge for this areas is there is no outflow so the storm water management system has to be designed to retain a 100+ year rain event.

This is why they flood golf courses and run sprinklers fire weeks to evaporate three accumulated rainfall.

Last edited by Altavia; 12-10-2024 at 06:41 PM.
  #21  
Old 12-10-2024, 01:45 PM
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From the horses mouth:

https://www.districtgov.org/wp-conte...astructure.pdf

The District has received several inquiries over the last several days regarding depressions, sinkholes, and stormwater pipes.

Unfortunately, there is a huge amount of misunderstanding
regarding the causative factors, further intensified by the misinformation on social media.

As this misinformation continues to spread and cause much angst among residents, we would like to take a moment to review the facts. To those residents that have reached out with your questions and concerns…thank you!!

FALSE:
There seems to be a misperception that inferior construction materials were used or substandard workmanship took place during road, infrastructure, and facility projects, which are then turned over to the District and become “the residents' problem” to fix.

TRUE:
The Villages is built to a high construction standard. Everything is designed, reviewed, and approved by licensed architects, professional engineers, structural engineers, mechanical engineers, and other professionals. All of the work is built to industry standards, local building
codes and is permitted, inspected, and accepted by independent County inspectors who must certify that construction meets industry standards and federal, state and local building codes.

FALSE:
There are massive failures of infrastructure, either caused by or causing depressions and
sinkholes.

TRUE:
Given the sheer massive size, density, and complicated infrastructure within The Villages, along with the topography of Central Florida, it is not uncommon to have naturally forming depressions, and on rare occasions, pipe or other infrastructure failures.

The majority of our infrastructure is in excellent condition.

Stormwater pipe failures can lead to a depression, and while these do occasionally occur, the majority of depressions are naturally occurring. One of the primary indicators of a stormwater pipe failure is evidence of a depression in the ground immediately above a stormwater pipe.

There are several reasons for stormwater pipe failures including age, corrosion, blocked/clogged pipes, separated joints, or connections.

FALSE:
Sinkholes are occurring all over The Villages.

TRUE:
We have had only one sinkhole over the past 16 months, which was the one near the Moyer Recreation Center. Depressions can and do appear anywhere, and we have been challenged with numerous depressions which have occurred in basins, parking lots, golf courses, and other areas. In every case of a sinkhole, depression, or pipe failure, we utilize Professional Engineers and Geotechnical Engineers to perform analysis including ground-penetrating radar, standard penetration testing, cone penetration tests, core samples, soil density tests, visual inspections, and diver services which formulate our repair efforts. Most depressions include the use of chemical grout which is injected into numerous injection points to fill and stabilize voids, loose soil, large cavities, etc. We also use clayey soil to backfill and compact into smaller
depressions. Depressions within basins are significantly more challenging and thus more expensive to repair and often include repair and/or replacement of the basin liner.

FALSE:
Infrastructure is turned over to the District with no warranty.

TRUE:
All infrastructure turned over to the District from the Developer comes with a one-year (1) warranty. This meets industry standards and is common practice in other cities/counties.

FALSE:
Stormwater pipes and other infrastructure was poorly constructed and now residents just have to pay when it fails.

TRUE:
Infrastructure throughout the community is designed, reviewed, and approved by licensed architects, professional engineers, structural engineers, mechanical engineers, and other professionals. It is built to industry standards, local building codes and is permitted, inspected, and accepted by independent County inspectors who must certify that construction meets industry standards and federal, state and local building codes.

District Property Management has a robust program to perform pipe inspections. Pipes are generally inspected every five years for Steel Pipes, and every 10 years for Concrete or PVC pipes. It should be noted that in our older areas of The Villages, our infrastructure is greater than 35 years old and by the sheer age is more prone to failure. Divers are routinely used for wet pipes and pipes with stormwater connective boxes. Stormwater pipe inspections are a proven Best Management Practice (BMP) that can be used proactively to identify potential pipe failures (corrosion, collapse, separation, etc.). By following the adopted BMPs, repairs can be made or other necessary actions can take place to prevent the failure of control measures. Stormwater pipe inspections have led to repair actions, which have prevented the total failure of sections of the stormwater system and avoided hundreds of thousands of potential damages and repair costs.

In The Villages, less than 0.10% (or 1/10th of a percent) of stormwater pipes have actually had a failure.

FALSE:
Nothing is happening after hearing repairs need to be made to certain pipes. Recently, contractor availability has significantly impacted the District’s ability to perform and complete Pipe Inspections (and repairs) throughout The Villages. As a result, the Pipe Inspection program has been challenging to keep on schedule and perform required
repairs. Likewise, the cost for these services has greatly increased over the past two years which limits the number of inspections that can be reasonably completed within current budgetary constraints. Just this month, Village Center Community Development District

TRUE:
With the Deep Trekker, DPM can quickly perform pipe inspections as needed and on the spot without expending District funds on contracted
services and save an estimated $175,000 annually. While DPM will continue to utilize contractors for large-scale pipe inspection projects, the Deep Trekker will prove most critical when we have suspected pipe or stormwater-related failures.

FALSE:
authorized the funding to procure a Deep Trekker Remotely Operated Vehicle (ROV) system for DPM to conduct stormwater pipe inspections. We are just placing a Band-Aid on areas that need repair or replacement.

TRUE:
In most cases, stormwater pipes can be repaired through Cured In Place Pipe, which is a trenchless rehabilitation method used to repair existing pipelines. It is a jointless, seamless lining that can be inserted from the inlet to the outlet, thus there is little to no damage to landscaping and other areas. CIPP is considered to be a 50-year repair and it has proven to be a highly effective solution. In some cases, we must replace a pipe that has failed due to age, corrosion, or other factors. Pipe replacement projects are the last resort. Lastly, we work
closely with our City and County partners to cost-share repairs which cross County roads or Right of Ways.

When you read something or hear a rumor while enjoying this wonderful lifestyle, please take a moment to “fact check” before you become concerned or pass along misinformation. In a community this large, misinformation can be one of our biggest challenges. For additional information or clarification, please visit Welcome to The Villages Community Development Districts or contact District Property Management
  #22  
Old 12-10-2024, 04:52 PM
BrianL99 BrianL99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altavia View Post
From the horses mouth:

https://www.districtgov.org/wp-conte...astructure.pdf

The District has received several inquiries over the last several days regarding depressions, sinkholes, and stormwater pipes.

Unfortunately, there is a huge amount of misunderstanding
regarding the causative factors, further intensified by the misinformation on social media.

I have to say, that was pretty solid answer and there's not much there that I would disagree with.

When I responded earlier, that I don't think the quality of work performed is the same as in a major metro area, I should have conditioned that, with my frame of reference, which is the Northeast. The Northeast deals with an entirely different set of circumstances and weather conditions than here in Florida, so it would only stand to reason, their constructions standards would be significantly different.

It was encouraging to hear that the District knows they've had trouble keeping up with maintenance and inspections. Inspections and maintenance are a critical component to keeping a drainage systems as sophisticated as TV's, operating as designed.
  #23  
Old 12-10-2024, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npwalters View Post
To answer all the people predisposed to criticize and can't take the time to actually read the original post.

By reports I mean the news articles that are published almost every week. I have no need to go back and repost those as "proof". I also ASKED if this level of failure is normal. Note that I asked if there were any civil engineers on the forum. I am looking for an informed opinion.
"News articles"???..............R U relying on the online "news" site??

First, it's not a news site. Run by someone who (I heard) was fired by TV and "only" posts negative items about TV, the family and all related contractors.
Second, most people who have lived here two years or more know the "First" and take everything with a grain of salt.
Third, I doubt any place in TN has a website with such a disdain for a developer and posts every negative thing possible.

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Old 12-10-2024, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianL99 View Post
I have to say, that was pretty solid answer and there's not much there that I would disagree with.

When I responded earlier, that I don't think the quality of work performed is the same as in a major metro area, I should have conditioned that, with my frame of reference, which is the Northeast. The Northeast deals with an entirely different set of circumstances and weather conditions than here in Florida, so it would only stand to reason, their constructions standards would be significantly different.

It was encouraging to hear that the District knows they've had trouble keeping up with maintenance and inspections. Inspections and maintenance are a critical component to keeping a drainage systems as sophisticated as TV's, operating as designed.
Your endorsement is duly noted…………
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Old 12-10-2024, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altavia View Post
From the horses mouth:

https://www.districtgov.org/wp-conte...astructure.pdf

The District has received several inquiries over the last several days regarding depressions, sinkholes, and stormwater pipes.

Unfortunately, there is a huge amount of misunderstanding
regarding the causative factors, further intensified by the misinformation on social media.

As this misinformation continues to spread and cause much angst among residents, we would like to take a moment to review the facts. To those residents that have reached out with your questions and concerns…thank you!!

FALSE:
There seems to be a misperception that inferior construction materials were used or substandard workmanship took place during road, infrastructure, and facility projects, which are then turned over to the District and become “the residents' problem” to fix.

TRUE:
The Villages is built to a high construction standard. Everything is designed, reviewed, and approved by licensed architects, professional engineers, structural engineers, mechanical engineers, and other professionals. All of the work is built to industry standards, local building
codes and is permitted, inspected, and accepted by independent County inspectors who must certify that construction meets industry standards and federal, state and local building codes.

FALSE:
There are massive failures of infrastructure, either caused by or causing depressions and
sinkholes.

TRUE:
Given the sheer massive size, density, and complicated infrastructure within The Villages, along with the topography of Central Florida, it is not uncommon to have naturally forming depressions, and on rare occasions, pipe or other infrastructure failures.

The majority of our infrastructure is in excellent condition.

Stormwater pipe failures can lead to a depression, and while these do occasionally occur, the majority of depressions are naturally occurring. One of the primary indicators of a stormwater pipe failure is evidence of a depression in the ground immediately above a stormwater pipe.

There are several reasons for stormwater pipe failures including age, corrosion, blocked/clogged pipes, separated joints, or connections.

FALSE:
Sinkholes are occurring all over The Villages.

TRUE:
We have had only one sinkhole over the past 16 months, which was the one near the Moyer Recreation Center. Depressions can and do appear anywhere, and we have been challenged with numerous depressions which have occurred in basins, parking lots, golf courses, and other areas. In every case of a sinkhole, depression, or pipe failure, we utilize Professional Engineers and Geotechnical Engineers to perform analysis including ground-penetrating radar, standard penetration testing, cone penetration tests, core samples, soil density tests, visual inspections, and diver services which formulate our repair efforts. Most depressions include the use of chemical grout which is injected into numerous injection points to fill and stabilize voids, loose soil, large cavities, etc. We also use clayey soil to backfill and compact into smaller
depressions. Depressions within basins are significantly more challenging and thus more expensive to repair and often include repair and/or replacement of the basin liner.

FALSE:
Infrastructure is turned over to the District with no warranty.

TRUE:
All infrastructure turned over to the District from the Developer comes with a one-year (1) warranty. This meets industry standards and is common practice in other cities/counties.

FALSE:
Stormwater pipes and other infrastructure was poorly constructed and now residents just have to pay when it fails.

TRUE:
Infrastructure throughout the community is designed, reviewed, and approved by licensed architects, professional engineers, structural engineers, mechanical engineers, and other professionals. It is built to industry standards, local building codes and is permitted, inspected, and accepted by independent County inspectors who must certify that construction meets industry standards and federal, state and local building codes.

District Property Management has a robust program to perform pipe inspections. Pipes are generally inspected every five years for Steel Pipes, and every 10 years for Concrete or PVC pipes. It should be noted that in our older areas of The Villages, our infrastructure is greater than 35 years old and by the sheer age is more prone to failure. Divers are routinely used for wet pipes and pipes with stormwater connective boxes. Stormwater pipe inspections are a proven Best Management Practice (BMP) that can be used proactively to identify potential pipe failures (corrosion, collapse, separation, etc.). By following the adopted BMPs, repairs can be made or other necessary actions can take place to prevent the failure of control measures. Stormwater pipe inspections have led to repair actions, which have prevented the total failure of sections of the stormwater system and avoided hundreds of thousands of potential damages and repair costs.

In The Villages, less than 0.10% (or 1/10th of a percent) of stormwater pipes have actually had a failure.

FALSE:
Nothing is happening after hearing repairs need to be made to certain pipes. Recently, contractor availability has significantly impacted the District’s ability to perform and complete Pipe Inspections (and repairs) throughout The Villages. As a result, the Pipe Inspection program has been challenging to keep on schedule and perform required
repairs. Likewise, the cost for these services has greatly increased over the past two years which limits the number of inspections that can be reasonably completed within current budgetary constraints. Just this month, Village Center Community Development District

TRUE:
With the Deep Trekker, DPM can quickly perform pipe inspections as needed and on the spot without expending District funds on contracted
services and save an estimated $175,000 annually. While DPM will continue to utilize contractors for large-scale pipe inspection projects, the Deep Trekker will prove most critical when we have suspected pipe or stormwater-related failures.

FALSE:
authorized the funding to procure a Deep Trekker Remotely Operated Vehicle (ROV) system for DPM to conduct stormwater pipe inspections. We are just placing a Band-Aid on areas that need repair or replacement.

TRUE:
In most cases, stormwater pipes can be repaired through Cured In Place Pipe, which is a trenchless rehabilitation method used to repair existing pipelines. It is a jointless, seamless lining that can be inserted from the inlet to the outlet, thus there is little to no damage to landscaping and other areas. CIPP is considered to be a 50-year repair and it has proven to be a highly effective solution. In some cases, we must replace a pipe that has failed due to age, corrosion, or other factors. Pipe replacement projects are the last resort. Lastly, we work
closely with our City and County partners to cost-share repairs which cross County roads or Right of Ways.

When you read something or hear a rumor while enjoying this wonderful lifestyle, please take a moment to “fact check” before you become concerned or pass along misinformation. In a community this large, misinformation can be one of our biggest challenges. For additional information or clarification, please visit Welcome to The Villages Community Development Districts or contact District Property Management

GREAT POST.

Hopefully, the pot stirrer's posts will be discounted and forgotten.

BOOM.
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Old 12-11-2024, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npwalters View Post
Any civil engineers on this forum?

It seems like there is a report of some part of the drainage, ponds, and/or home foundations failing in The Villages quite often. Sometimes it is in areas only a few years old.

Is this normal? My neighborhood in Tennessee was over 70 years old and we did not have similar issues. Maybe it is just reported in the local newspaper more often but I really don't know. My gut says it is due to substandard building practices but I have no information to back that up.

I'd like to hear the thoughts of others with some experience in this arena.
St Catherine is going through a huge revamping of its sewage lines right now. Our village is not quite 5 years old! The infrastructure is junk. We have roads torn up, blacktop patches in several spots, cones and fences here all around and you can’t even get to Sawgrass without hitting detours.
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  #27  
Old 12-11-2024, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter View Post
Report, what report?
Ashland Pond.
  #28  
Old 12-11-2024, 06:21 AM
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Ashland Pond.
I would have hated to have bought there. What a mess. These people thought they had a view, instead a wasteland was their reward. I feel sorry for those who have respiratory problems.

https://www.**************.com/2024/...-the-villages/
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Old 12-11-2024, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by npwalters View Post
It seems like there is a report of some part of the drainage, ponds, and/or home foundations failing in The Villages quite often. Sometimes it is in areas only a few years old.
False. While there are instances of drainage issues, pond problems, and foundation failures in The Villages, FL, stating that these fail "quite often" might be an overgeneralization. The information available does not conclusively support that these issues are frequent or widespread enough to be considered "quite often":

Drainage and Ponds: There have been documented cases where ponds fail to manage stormwater runoff effectively, leading to flooding, particularly when maintenance is neglected. For instance, an article from L.E.W. Inc Blog discusses how clogged retention pond drains can lead to flooding, but this is presented as a potential issue rather than a regular occurrence.

Home Foundations: There is no direct evidence from the provided search results specifically stating that home foundations in The Villages fail frequently. However, general issues with land subsidence, drainage, and pond maintenance could theoretically contribute to foundation problems if not managed properly.

Given the lack of definitive, comprehensive data from the search results to support the claim that these failures happen "quite often," it's more accurate to say that while these issues do occur, they are not necessarily common or frequent across the entire area.

This conclusion is drawn based on the information from the web results, which do not provide enough evidence to support the statement as broadly stated. Source: GrokAI

https://www.**************.com/2024/...-the-villages/
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Old 12-11-2024, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npwalters View Post
Any civil engineers on this forum?

It seems like there is a report of some part of the drainage, ponds, and/or home foundations failing in The Villages quite often. Sometimes it is in areas only a few years old.

Is this normal? My neighborhood in Tennessee was over 70 years old and we did not have similar issues. Maybe it is just reported in the local newspaper more often but I really don't know. My gut says it is due to substandard building practices but I have no information to back that up.

I'd like to hear the thoughts of others with some experience in this arena.
Have you seen how these houses are built? After footers are dug, there is no compaction of the soil/sand or any gravel and rebar put down prior to pouring of concrete. The same with the driveways and sidewalks. I saw several homes being built in my previous neighborhood and was shocked to see that being done.
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