[Toymeister]

My Flume water monitor catches a 12,500 gallon irrigation excessive bill.

Monitor helps pay for itself. No this is not a difference in billing cycles. No the monitor is not malfuctioning. The system is off and there are no leaks as the monitor reads the water meter for activity.

Available on Amazon for 249.00. It also sends alerts when there are leaks.

[Bill14564]

I will be very interested to hear how you resolve this. I expect you will encounter a great deal of pushback from the District who will argue their meters do not make mistakes and will take exception to being presented with conflicting data.

[Altavia]

Does your meter pit ever fill with water?

[spinner1001]

Originally Posted by Altavia

Does your meter pit ever fill with water?

Mine do. One Flume still works and the other doesn’t. (Not the battery.)

[Altavia]

Originally Posted by spinner1001

Mine do. One Flume still works and the other doesn’t. (Not the battery.)

Mine was intermittent when under water.

Ended up mounting the hub outside under the eves, line of sight to the pit

[LeRoySmith]

I've had some direct experience with water meters from the providers side of the equation. One of my first real jobs was being the grunt at a small municipality water department. My primary duty was replacing meters that had stopped working and investigating high water consumption complaints. My learning from that job was meters don't typically make errors in the utilities favor. If a meter malfunctions its because the innards get gummed up or worn and actually under report the amount of water that has passed thorough them. I replaced or repaired many meters that had been in place for decades and the bill always went up, because the new meter was more accurate than the old worn one. I'd say 90% of my investigation results were faulty toilets, either a leaky flapper of a malfunctioning flush valve. The other 10% were kids leaving the hose running, a broken pipe after the meter or a sink dripping. I suspect there were several cases where the homeowner left the water running somewhere but they rarely admitted it.

Meter readers do occasionally make errors, reading meters was another of my duties at the water dept., but those errors work themselves out on the next billing cycle. I think the majority of large water works use remote readers these days so the reading errors should drop significantly.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

I will be very interested to hear how you resolve this. I expect you will encounter a great deal of pushback from the District who will argue their meters do not make mistakes and will take exception to being presented with conflicting data.

Agree, guilty till prove to them your innocence..

[fdpaq0580]

Originally Posted by Topspinmo

Agree, guilty till prove to them your innocence..

True. They hold all the cards. When we traveled was when the (very large) over charges occurred. Funny thing was what ever the problem might have been, it alwaysfixed itself (potable or irrigation) by the time we returned and never left any clue that we or plumbers could find as to what the problem could have been. When, after complaining, heck was sent out to check the meter, he found meter over reporting at used and changed the meter. New meter still over reporting our usage, but "within tolerance" (<10% if I remember correctly) as far as they are concerned. Imagine raking off the top of a money deposit or withdrawal any percentage. Accuracy counts ---- except with water billing, I guess. Monopoly has us by the (naughty words deleted) and we pay whatever we must, like it or not. 🤬

[Jakester]

Originally Posted by LeRoySmith

I've had some direct experience with water meters from the providers side of the equation. One of my first real jobs was being the grunt at a small municipality water department. My primary duty was replacing meters that had stopped working and investigating high water consumption complaints. My learning from that job was meters don't typically make errors in the utilities favor. If a meter malfunctions its because the innards get gummed up or worn and actually under report the amount of water that has passed thorough them. I replaced or repaired many meters that had been in place for decades and the bill always went up, because the new meter was more accurate than the old worn one. I'd say 90% of my investigation results were faulty toilets, either a leaky flapper of a malfunctioning flush valve. The other 10% were kids leaving the hose running, a broken pipe after the meter or a sink dripping. I suspect there were several cases where the homeowner left the water running somewhere but they rarely admitted it.

Meter readers do occasionally make errors, reading meters was another of my duties at the water dept., but those errors work themselves out on the next billing cycle. I think the majority of large water works use remote readers these days so the reading errors should drop significantly.

My experience echos yours. You forgot the other culprit resulting in high water bills is a faulty water sofner on the domestic side (customer's responsibility).

They often can get "stuck" in the regeneration cycle.

In over 3 decades of water meter testing, I've never heard of a meter running "fast".

They will test in favor of the customer as like with people (generally speaking), with age they move slower and eventually croak.

[Jakester]

If the meter has a new register or "clock" installed to replace a unit that died, if the incorrect size was accidentally used (they typically look identical) then an error against the customer can easily occur.

Most residential meters are 5/8 or 1".

One might ask if any parts were recently replaced on their meter.

Newer style meters are an all inclusive unit with nothing to replace except the entire meter.

[Bill14564]

Too many people report the same 12,500 or 25,000 gallon increase for there to be nothing to this. At the same time, it is only 6 - 12 reports per year. I don't believe the meters are infallible; I don't believe any electronics are infallible. My computer needs to be rebooted about once a month, my car electronics have glitched once or twice in three years, I don't believe the water meters are 100% bulletproof.

In this thread you have someone who used a second set of electronics to read what the mechanical part of the meter was sending. I'm sure this was not the first month the second reading was made which implies the readings have matched well in previous months.

Now there is a 12,500 gallon difference. What happened? Did the second set of electronics fail to detect that much additional usage? Possible, but if the same people in the same house went about the same activities as they had in previous months and the second meter shows the same reading then I would hesitate to question it.

On the other hand, there is a history of complaints of unexplained high readings from meters of the same type as the primary meter. There are only a small number of complaints each year over the 80,000 or so meters in use in the area. Most of the complaints have been dismissed with statements that the meters work, the meters don't fail, there is no idea where the thousands of gallons of water went, but since there is no evidence that the meter is faulty the homeowner must pay (yes, there is a waiver available now).

In this case there is evidence that the meter is giving an incorrect reading. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[LeRoySmith]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

Too many people report the same 12,500 or 25,000 gallon increase for there to be nothing to this. At the same time, it is only 6 - 12 reports per year. I don't believe the meters are infallible; I don't believe any electronics are infallible. My computer needs to be rebooted about once a month, my car electronics have glitched once or twice in three years, I don't believe the water meters are 100% bulletproof.

In this thread you have someone who used a second set of electronics to read what the mechanical part of the meter was sending. I'm sure this was not the first month the second reading was made which implies the readings have matched well in previous months.

Now there is a 12,500 gallon difference. What happened? Did the second set of electronics fail to detect that much additional usage? Possible, but if the same people in the same house went about the same activities as they had in previous months and the second meter shows the same reading then I would hesitate to question it.

On the other hand, there is a history of complaints of unexplained high readings from meters of the same type as the primary meter. There are only a small number of complaints each year over the 80,000 or so meters in use in the area. Most of the complaints have been dismissed with statements that the meters work, the meters don't fail, there is no idea where the thousands of gallons of water went, but since there is no evidence that the meter is faulty the homeowner must pay (yes, there is a waiver available now).

In this case there is evidence that the meter is giving an incorrect reading. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

If someone were convinced that they were being cheated they could hire a plumber to purchase and install another water meter directly behind the utilities meter. The second meter could be used to verify or dispel the utilities meter reading. If it was a quality water meter and it disputed the utilities meter I'm confident it would get some attention. This would be an expensive option but it would certainly provide some solid data.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by LeRoySmith

If someone were convinced that they were being cheated they could hire a plumber to purchase and install another water meter directly behind the utilities meter. The second meter could be used to verify or dispel the utilities meter reading. If it was a quality water meter and it disputed the utilities meter I'm confident it would get some attention. This would be an expensive option but it would certainly provide some solid data.

Essentially, that is what was done. A second reader for the same mechanical system was used and it disputed the utility's meter.

The problem with installing a second meter today is the nature of the possible glitch in the utility's meter. If this was an issue that occurred frequently then the manufacturer would have identified it and corrected it. (and possibly they have but we will never find out because acknowledging that would lead to accepting that 80,000 meters needed to be replaced and that surely isn't going to happen) If this is a glitch then it is happening in maybe 12 of 80,000 meters over the course of a year. The odds of it happening at all are low, the odds of it happening a second time are nearly zero.

The utility will dispute the accuracy of the second reading today, just as they would dispute the accuracy of an entire second meter if it was placed tomorrow.

The District's response to this will be:
- The water went through the meter
- It isn't up to them to prove the water went through the meter
- We can show you that the meter correctly counts the amount of water going through it*
- You can pay to have the water shut off at the meter before you leave on a trip**
- You can petition for a one-time forgiveness of an abnormally high reading***

* The problem isn't that the meter incorrectly measures water going through it, the problem is the meter counts 12,500 or 25,000 gallons of water when water is NOT going through it. The test they run is the only test they have available but it is the wrong test.

** Since the problem seems to be a glitch that happens very rarely (12/80,000 maybe), turning the water off at the meter after you have been affected is like shutting the barn door after the horses have escaped. It will prevent a second glitch from happening but there was little chance it would happen the first time and almost zero chance of it happening the second.

*** This is probably the best solution to this problem. The meters are not 100% error free, nothing is. Accepting that on very rare occasions this glitch might happen and allowing forgiveness of that very rare occurrence is reasonable. It's just a shame it took so long to get to this point.

[Altavia]

The Flume while a great tool for monitoring water usage is not fool proof or intended as a calibrated measurement device.

I've had instances when it failed to record when the sensor stopped transmitting because the meter pit filled with water.

https://fccid.io/2AOX8-F1100/User-Ma...al-3757797.pdf

[LeRoySmith]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

The odds of it happening at all are low, the odds of it happening a second time are nearly zero.

- You can pay to have the water shut off at the meter before you leave on a trip**

When you say it happens only a few times I wonder if it happens to the same small group of meters each year or a completely different group. If its an electronic glitch it seems like it would be more prone to infect the same meter multiple times rather than once and never again. I'd liken it to something in your car or dishwasher, if there's a gremlin in the wires it rarely happens once and often become a routine failure.

We shut our water off in the garage when we leave, that takes care of the vast majority of the possible leak sites but it does leave the pipe between the meter and the house shutoff in question. You could go a step further and shut it off in the meter pit, its not as easy but not difficult to pop the lid off and give the valve a half turn with an adjustable wrench. No need to call the utility to do this is you're the slightest bit handy (or I'd be happy to stop by and shut it off for you).