[Michael G.]

Originally Posted by tuccillo

Whether you want to believe it or not, electric vehicles are a disruptive technology that will gain acceptance on the "S" curve that most new technologies have followed. Ready for prime time? I think we are past that.

In the meantime, we're all a bunch of sheep following technology we and our government know little about its future, just take your $80-$90,000 to your friendly car dealership and go with the flow.

[tuccillo]

You can certainly spend $80-$90K on an EV, just as you can on a gas vehicle, but you don't need to. There are many EVs available for much less. For example, the Tesla Model Y SUV is available for $55K minus the $7500 incentive from the IRS. The average new car price, by the way, is $50K.

Originally Posted by Michael G.

In the meantime, we're all a bunch of sheep following technology we and our government know little about its future, just take your $80-$90,000 to your friendly car dealership and go with the flow.

[ithos]

It seems the new technology will increase density but efficiency looks like it will be similar. So no real effect on the grid requirements. So longer ranges on a charge but same amount of kw per mile. Please correct me if this is not accurate.

Regardless, the mandate to eliminate ICE will have devastating consequences for out economy, safety and standard of living.

If the true intent was only to reduce fossil fuel demand then the government overlords would have required a shift to hybrids and fuel cells. That would be logical.

But we all know what the real motives are.

[Battlebasset]

Originally Posted by blueash

I completely agree with you that lithium mining is fraught with inhumane conditions and needs reformation. Hopefully enough light gets shown on this abuse that international pressure pushes reforms in those countries and those corporations that allow it to continue.

Similar conditions existed in coal mining here and elsewhere for generations, and still exist in clothing manufacturing, other mining, and very likely in the production of the cell phone I use. Sadly we as consumers are certainly complicit in our inadvertent or even advertent worker and environmental abuses. And worker abuses do not only occur in the third world, only differing in the severity and breadth of those abuses. The horror stories from Qatar building the World Cup facilities is a good example of how this goes on even in a rich country.

But keep doing it for now to save the planet? Based on who runs those operations (local warlords doing the bidding of the CCP) is there any reasonable hope for reform? I would argue a strong "no" as long as the elite attending Davos get their precious "climate change" agenda to move forward.

EV - A solution in search of a problem that creates problems of its own. In this case, maimed and dead children.

[tuccillo]

Fuel cells are problematic because of the low overall efficiency of generating hydrogen, the difficulty of storing hydrogen, and the lack of infrastructure to deliver hydrogen. While we may see some growth in the use of fuel cells for commercial vehicles that leave from and return to a common location, large scale use for personal travel is a tough sell.

Originally Posted by ithos

It seems the new technology will increase density but efficiency looks like it will be similar. So no real effect on the grid requirements. So longer ranges on a charge but same amount of kw per mile. Please correct me if this is not accurate.

Regardless, the mandate to eliminate ICE will have devastating consequences for out economy, safety and standard of living.

If the true intent was only to reduce fossil fuel demand then the government overlords would have required a shift to hybrids and fuel cells. That would be logical.

But we all know what the real motives are.

[rsmurano]

We are nowhere close to prime time for EV’s. There are so many issues with EV’s that will take decades to fix. Here are a few:
I have a relative in the northwest and he says a lot of the charging stations are damaged and the online mapping of these don’t indicate this,
Even the weather channel during the evacuation of the residents for Ian were telling people not to us an EV to leave in,
Not enough charging stations, too long to charge, long wait times at charging stations, range is too small, local mechanics can’t work on them, and the cost is too much. When the charging stations availability equals that of gas stations, when it takes the same amount of time to charge your car as it does to fill it up with gas, car prices are equal, and most mechanics can work on them, then I’ll be interested

[tuccillo]

Do you realize that the transition will probably take 20 years? During this time, all aspects till ramp up. Will you even be alive in 20 years? Your choices, if you are interested in purchasing a new vehicle, will be severely limited by 2035.

Originally Posted by rsmurano

We are nowhere close to prime time for EV’s. There are so many issues with EV’s that will take decades to fix. Here are a few:
I have a relative in the northwest and he says a lot of the charging stations are damaged and the online mapping of these don’t indicate this,
Even the weather channel during the evacuation of the residents for Ian were telling people not to us an EV to leave in,
Not enough charging stations, too long to charge, long wait times at charging stations, range is too small, local mechanics can’t work on them, and the cost is too much. When the charging stations availability equals that of gas stations, when it takes the same amount of time to charge your car as it does to fill it up with gas, car prices are equal, and most mechanics can work on them, then I’ll be interested

[OhioBuckeye]

Bingo, me niether! These people that buy these 80, 90, $100,000. EV’s are so fascinated with these EV’s until they have buy one of these 1,000 lb. batteries, then have to get a loan to buy one , oh yea don’t forget paying disposal fees. Time will tell!

[blueash]

Originally Posted by ithos

It seems the new technology will increase density but efficiency looks like it will be similar. So no real effect on the grid requirements. So longer ranges on a charge but same amount of kw per mile. Please correct me if this is not accurate.

.

I take it that you actually read the link to the news of a potentially better lithium battery, unlike some who just want to only whine about the elites, whoever they are.

Your question is why I asked if there are any P Chem people reading who could give more enlightened answers. It seems that if a battery of similar size and weight can hold a much greater deliverable amount of energy that your range is extended. But perhaps I don't fully grasp the physics. I don't see anything telling me whether that greater capacity would mean longer charge times.
The image in the original post suggests to me, and I may be entirely wrong in my interpretation, that a pound of lithium battery vs a pound of gasoline will provide the same amount of power to the car. [one gallon of gasoline weighs about six pounds]

[Blackbird45]

Like everything else this will find its path and a couple of years from now there will be a new topic where people will be telling you the sky is falling.

I'm not saying this is the solution, but there are startup companies that are recycling batteries.

There is also a car company where you buy the car and lease the battery.

Everyone is aware of the problems, and they will find a way to address them.

If for nothing else but to make a profit.

[ithos]

Originally Posted by tuccillo

Fuel cells are problematic because of the low overall efficiency of generating hydrogen, the difficulty of storing hydrogen, and the lack of infrastructure to deliver hydrogen. While we may see some growth in the use of fuel cells for commercial vehicles that leave from and return to a common location, large scale use for personal travel is a tough sell.

You are right about the present day limitations.

Amazon strikes green hydrogen deal with fuel cell maker Plug Power
Access Denied

Walmart to expand hydrogen fuel cell delivery vehicle pilot
Walmart to expand hydrogen fuel cell delivery vehicle pilot - H2 News

But it could be the the answer to the "storage" challenge for solar and wind. Batteries will never have the capacity or be environmentally acceptable.

Research Fellow at the ANU College of Engineering & Computer Science, Astha Sharma's PhD research set a world record for solar-to-hydrogen generation by coupling high efficiency perovskite-silicon tandem solar cells and low-cost catalysts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUe2fHEEUWk

[Vermilion Villager]

From Tesla:
An average electric vehicle (EV) will need a replacement battery when it has lost 20% of its range. Most users have reported Tesla battery loss at only 5% after 100,000 miles.
Tesla batteries last between 300,000 to 500,000 miles. The average person drives 273 miles a week, so you can expect your Tesla battery to last anywhere from 21 to 35 years, depending on your driving habits.


Point being, Tesla batteries will rarely (if ever) need to be replaced. You’ll probably need to replace your car before you need to replace the battery.

[ithos]

Originally Posted by Vermilion Villager

From Tesla:
An average electric vehicle (EV) will need a replacement battery when it has lost 20% of its range. Most users have reported Tesla battery loss at only 5% after 100,000 miles.
Tesla batteries last between 300,000 to 500,000 miles. The average person drives 273 miles a week, so you can expect your Tesla battery to last anywhere from 21 to 35 years, depending on your driving habits.


Point being, Tesla batteries will rarely (if ever) need to be replaced. You’ll probably need to replace your car before you need to replace the battery.

Thank you for the tip. Electric cars are good options for many folks and have several advantages. But I was referring to large scale battery storage for a renewable energy grid which would be orders of magnitude greater.

Regarding EV battery disposal, there still is no long term viable solution. They are trying but I am very skeptical that a practical solution will be found. But hey, future generations will already hate us for the massive debt we are leaving behind, so might as well leave them a catastrophic environmental mess as well.

The battery pack of a Tesla Model S is a feat of intricate engineering. Thousands of cylindrical cells with components sourced from around the world transform lithium and electrons into enough energy to propel the car hundreds of kilometers, again and again, without tailpipe emissions. But when the battery comes to the end of its life, its green benefits fade. If it ends up in a landfill, its cells can release problematic toxins, including heavy metals. And recycling the battery can be a hazardous business, warns materials scientist Dana Thompson of the University of Leicester. Cut too deep into a Tesla cell, or in the wrong place, and it can short-circuit, combust, and release toxic fumes.

That's just one of the many problems confronting researchers, including Thompson, who are trying to tackle an emerging problem: how to recycle the millions of electric vehicle (EV) batteries that manufacturers expect to produce over the next few decades. Current EV batteries "are really not designed to be recycled," says Thompson, .

Science | AAAS

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by blueash

Possibly big news in Science magazine where only the abstract is free to view. It reports a new design using a new matrix and air with lithium to produce a lighter battery with a higher energy density. See also HERE

I need some help from the P Chem people on this website, but there is a laymen's discussion of this advance at THIS WEBSITE which includes a lot of links.

The upshot seems to be that if this works we will have a battery that far exceeds what we have now

As I mentioned several times before, battery technology (and electrical power generation centers) are NOT going to stop improving. We are like in the time period as far as E-vehicles go....... compared to about what 1900 WAS for ICE vehicles. Ice vehicles KEPT improving AND so will E-vehicles.
.......The US is EVEN paying people to participate in the future switch-over. It's ALL good !

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Michael G.

We certainly need better battery's, they are the life blood of all those $90,000 and $100,000 + vehicles.
The vehicles would be junk without a good lifetime battery.

So until then, I'll never let myself get suck-in the electric vehicle world.

That's what my father said about those strange things called Television antennas that were MAGICALLY appearing on ALL our neighbor's rooftops. He said that they would NEVER replace the RADIO.