Will we get Dragons back? Because I really want a dragon...

Hogwash
 

Climate Change is all Hogwash! It is all about your MONEY!

"Seriously misunderstood creatures, dragons are"

I think the last several posts may be longer than the speech they refer to :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Some people's "facts" are just flat out wrong, as well as exhibiting faulty cause-effect reasoning. Using ONE, yes a SINGLE storm (weather event) as an example does not reflect a 100,000 year CLIMATE change cycle.

And yes, ocean levels are rising, they have been rising for the last 23,000 years, again, showing that human beings have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with it. In the last 120 years ocean levels have risen 6-8 inches. Actually, the biggest rise occurred between 21,000 BC and 11,000 BC-----432 feet, yes FEET, not INCHES. But before those easily panicked get frightened, Florida won't be partially underwater for another 25,000 years. Also, remember that the 432 foot rise followed a similar fall in ocean levels during the last period of glaciation due to water getting sequestered in glaciers and ice caps.

Bottom line: I think I'll have a thick juicy steak tonight, comforted by the FACT that one less cow is farting. :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

1. People DO dispute the term, there are people (and media "sources") that insist that Climate Change is a hoax, and isn't happening at all.

2. That is not "the" debate. There is no singular debate. There are a couple of debates going on:
a) whether climate change is a concern at all (see #1 - climate deniers)
b) whether humans have *contributed* to it (not whether we are responsible for it).
c) if a) and b) are true, then what, if anything, can we do to slow down OUR part in it?

The first step in fixing any problem is to identify the problem and confirm that it is, in fact, a problem.

Climate change is a problem.
Human civilization is a contributing factor to the problem.
Humans -can- make changes to reduce their contribution.

Those are things that some folks consider factual. Others consider a global conspiracy. When the two come together and agree on the truth of the matter, then the human race will be able to do something, if something is necessary or even possible.

In the meantime, those of us who DO believe that it's a problem, that we are contributing to it, and that we /can/ make changes to reduce our contribution, should at least try to make some changes.

Here we go again.

1) In the long term, "climate change" is a problem----after all, in 25,000 years NY City will be under 400 feet of water, and 50,000 years after that it will be under 2 miles of ice. So yes, it is a problem, assuming humans aren't extinct in that time frame, in which case it might be a problem for cockroaches to deal with.

2) IF, and it's a big IF human civilization is a contributing factor, it is miniscule at best. This is not withstanding the assertion by another climate change "believer" that cow farts are the biggest problem. Maybe cows will still be around in 25,000 years. To those who "believe", in anthropomorphic global warming (along with Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy), explain how human civilization has caused 23,000 years of global warming to the tune of approximately 8 degrees F. Did we use the wrong kind of wood fire to cook our mastodon and saber tooth tiger meat in our caves???? Did Fred Flintstone's SUV only get 8 mpg??? Or do they just want to harp on how the ONE latest hurricane reflects 100,000 years of climate change? Give us a break from delusional thinking.

3) Of course we can reduce our "contribution", but keep in mind half of nothing is still nothing. But by all means let's spend the proposed 100 TRILLION dollars to try.

Well said!

You can buy a Dragon Ship today and find some friends to row REAL fast around Lake Sumter. Maybe even use a natural gas tank to shoot fire out of its mouth. happy trails, happy lake trails.
.........Maybe that puppy dog could swim in front on a rope and provide some needed propulsion. But, watch out for alligators without a sense of humor.

Hogwash....one of my FAV modern terminologies.

Please, please DON'T eat while thinking about flatulence - it is bad for the digestive tract. And I see that we ALL are in agreement about the FACT that ocean level is RISING - a step in the right direction, baby steps are GOOD. Now, to EXPAND a little on that fact, scientists that measure the YEARLY rise (we are talking about MAN'S pollution forming an upper atmospheric blanket.......in the time period of recent years, NOT geological time)......These SCIENTISTS are WORRIED by the RAPID RISE in just the last 2 YEARS.

We all know the popular song.......It takes a WORRIED scientist to sing a WORRIED Global Warming song
.......I'm worried NOW, but I might be dead soon....like the planet

Incidentally, in the Milwaukee Centinel Newspaper recently scientists are WORRIED that ONLY 3% of the lake is frozen.......the least in DECADES. This is expected to cause a large disruption in the lake and land ecosystem there !

OK, yes, good post. The 1st step in SOLVING a problem IS to identify clearly what that problem IS. I would like people to realize the PROBLEM happens each time the ignition KEY to a Infernal Combustion Engine is turned on. Or a gas lawn mower is STARTED. Now I know that people, especially older folks that are set in their ways, will NOT immediately trade their ICE engine vehicle (car, truck, or golf cart) on an E-VEHICLE.

I know that ! But I SIMPLY would like more people to realize that for people and animal species to continue to live on this planet Earth in a civilized and peaceful manner in the FUTURE - that today we must, (AT LEAST) recognize the correlation between fossil fuel vehicles and a deteriorating planet and SOME potentially really BAD outcomes for HUMANS !!!!!!

Some folks missed their calling and would make wonderful lobbyists for my fav.......the oil and gas industries.

And did I mention that a couple of days ago Oliver Stone was at Davos trying to help out planet Earth by pointing out that Nuclear Power Plants are NOT dangerous like the oil and gas industry has spent the BIG BUCKS to convince Americans of that. I may have forgotten to mention that ?

I pretty much also remembering commenting that Oliver Stone was my go to guy for factual, unbiased information (not) :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl;

Oh, yes---that "rapid" rise of 3.9 mm. Get your kayak out :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:
Now, if you can show me year by year data for the last 23,000 years and that the last 2 years are the largest rise in that time, then you'd have something. Unfortunately, Fred Flintstone didn't have an accurate ruler and the clay tablet he inscribed those numbers upon have crumbled. But since ocean levels rose 432 feet from 21,000 to 11,000 BC, I'd bet there were many, many years with an ocean rise of greater than 3.9 mm, again, all without the internal combustion engine.

BTW, which scientists????? Would those be the ones dependent upon government grants, journal acceptance of their articles, and university tenure to survive???? Yep, I thought so.

And I assume that the Milwaukee paper is referring to Lake Michigan having the lowest percentage freeze in decades. Which means there were previous decades with even less freezing.

Well one of us is going to be correct and the other, NOT so correct. I HOPE that I am the NOT CORRECT person, because that would be better for humanity. But, who is correct will probably RESOLVE itself in about 10 years - I hope I live that long. Next summer is NOT that far away and should shed some light on this potential dilemma. .........Last summer had fires ALL over the West and 2 VERY large, costly, and deadly hurricanes here in Fl. I am betting that this coming summer will bring more hurricanes to Fl. and BIG problems to other parts of the US. Ca. got some needed snowpack recently, but I believe that I saw that some parts of Ca. are still in a drought. Lots of peeps in Ca. are going to be needing water and A/C this coming summer. And since the mudslides washed away many plants needed for grown cover, can new grown cover grow up this spring enough to hold the soil on hills and
topsoil needed for crops.....I would be CURIOUS to know what someone of great stature thinks would be the OPTIMUM population of the US. Have we PAST it? Is 360 million people about right? Or there is NO OPTIMUM, just whatever? Just let it KEEP climbing?

The important part of the Milwaukee Article IS that their state scientists are WORRIED about the effect of a WARMER winter on the area ecosystem. The small % of ice only confirms the warmer problem. Just like here in Fl. and worldwide the dying coral confirms the WARMER problem. Also, the high and going higher levels of CO2 in the ocean water. There are a lot of RECENT trends and that IS what I am concerned about.

When Googling "ice cover on the Great Lakes", a person can find that Jan 2023 will have a record LOW amount of ICE. This will lead to increased evaporation and falling water levels. The record low ice is a measure of Global Warming and could lead to problems with the fish population of the great lakes and other ecologically bad changes.

IIRC, the "No Nukes" protests, trying to stop nuclear energy were NOT funded by oil & gas corporations... It was the "peace, love and granola" lobbyists... And that is still true, to this day...

BTW, I've been touting the new "safe" nuclear power plants for some time now. They are the only way we'll be able to power your beloved "E-(insert every single mode of transportation here) vehicles"...

That, or we all get one of these:

https://live.staticflickr.com/3086/3...74e4db3a_b.jpg

Actually, it said "near" the lowest level, but why quibble over facts?

Record Low?
 

Were you measuring ice back 11,600 years ago, too?

Who doesn't love MR. Fusion .......which actually was in the news recently about a lab-controlled breakthrough amounting to getting more energy out than put in for the 1 st time. But still, a long way to go.
...... But, neither of us nor anyone can say for SURE that the Oil and Gas industry did NOT fund anti-nuke rallies either DIRECTLY or by using anti-nuke propaganda. The Oil and Gas industry has some SMART covert operators that may have infiltrated the anti-nuke movement. They have the money and the motivation to hire the BEST covert operators. And they have been excelling at PROPAGANDA for as long as we have been alive. They are the industry that gets paid for NOT DRILLING.....pretty special......no ??????
.....Oil and gas practically owns one TV channel that can convince Americans that black is white.

And believe it or don't ......we can actually agree about your 2nd paragraph about the safety of nuclear energy plants. And I also twice pointed out that Oliver Stone made that point at Davos (anyone can google that). And some poster badmouthed Oliver Stone. Well, he would HAVE to be a pretty sharp "cookie" to be able to have directed and produced some of the top films ever produced. I bet he is EVEN smarter than me. But, more IMPORTANTLY, Davos just does not just let any old "wineo" come in out of the street and speak to the greatest businessmen on the planet. Oliver Stone is a legendary intellect that has a GOOD point to make and deserves a seat at the table with the TOP THINKERS of our time !!!!!!

Actually one sentence I saw said near record. But, in another paragraph or maybe an article it was stated that because it was well into JANUARY that it is about impossible that 2023 will not be a record.
.....But, it is GREAT that yourself and maybe others looked up the % of ICE because it is another (of many) proofs that the planet has warmed to record levels in the past 8 years. Contrary to what one poster claims. And another keeps believing that I am talking in Geological centuries, when in fact I am talking about real-time, right now, when CO2 is not able to be taken in by the amount of plants on earth and the upper atmosphere is acting like a blanket and setting records for HEAT on Earth. Somehow, I am having difficulty getting my point across. I can understand that some people may NOT care. And some people may have a different opinion, but what I don't understand is why after I have put out so many different FACTS, why my statement of those facts is attacked ??????

I don't understand how THAT is relevant, when today the scientists in Michigan are the ones believing that it is important this year and recently.

If climate change is an existential threat to the planet, what is the solution?

If everyone in the world bought an electric car, would that solve the problem?

There are about 1.4 billion cars in the world and only 19% are in the US. These cars have to be plugged into an electric outlet.

The power plants providing that energy aren’t emission-free; even in California, 60% of electricity came from burning fossil fuels in 2015, while solar and wind together made up less than 14%.

If we have electric cars, aren’t we still burning the fossil fuels to power the electric cars? We just do it earlier.

And how many of the 1.4 billion car owners can afford an electrical car?

I covered that next to last ? in a prior post. It is EASIER to clean up 1 LARGE STATIONARY power plant than a bizzillion in- FER-nal Combustion Vehicles accelerating and decelerating around town.

I also covered the last ? in a prior post. Electrical vehicles are simpler to design, build, maintain, and fuel than gas vehicles. They also have a lower center of gravity so the accelerate quicker and they ROLL OVER with more difficulty, especially golf carts. So, this SIMPLICITY will, over time and more production, lead to LESS costly and more reliable vehicles. Plus it does NOT take a Nostradamus to realize that E-Vehicles are the FUTURE.
.......But, this Nostradamus is predicting that he will have to repeat a similar post for the next 5 years
........and to all a goodnight ......

My great-grandfather used a horse powered wagon to go to town for supplies. One day, a local businessman confronted him telling him that if he would just purchase a motorcar(truck) the town wouldn't have to put up with his horses' manure in the street. He was told that his horse manure was a blight on the environment. In those days, combustion engines smoked and made enough noise to frighten livestock. A hundred and fifty years later, we have the (what I label) "Screamers" that predict the end of the world due to combustion engines. I've been told that I should purchase an 'lectric car to save the world. Suggestion: mind your own business and quit worrying about man's extinction that MIGHT occur in a thousand years. Man's been using fossil fuel for thousands of years, since the discovery of fire and we are still around. As a matter of fact, we have a larger population than ever. Don't worry about new ways to produce energy because private industry is always progressing. Just don't allow the Gov. to dictate how we "MUST" change because they do not have a clue. Their only motivation is money in their pockets at the expense of the citizens. Private industry has always been the real motivator for progress.

Tell that to the residents of Chernobyl or Fukushima.

Again, which scientists? I'll bet it is those who are dependent on government grants, university tenure and acceptance of published articles to feed their families.

And why do they do this----let's cite a 1967 essay by Chomsky:

"Still, let’s reflect on Chomsky’s method. Here were half a dozen of America’s best and brightest, the people daily interviewed on TV, the minds quoted in the media, the people given the grants and the awards, the celebrated geniuses of the age.

Chomsky proved them all to be ruling-class hucksters willing to tell any lie to protect themselves and their friends. The essay remains as a clarion call for intellectuals to stop with the nonsense, the careerism, the coverups: in short, he said, stop serving the ruling class with such slavish obeisance. He didn’t persuade them (he knew he would not) but at least a generation of students and citizens, upon reading his mini-treatise, had the scales fall from their eyes to see these people for what they were doing. "

Sadly, there are those that continue to believe and quote these irresponsible charlatans.

You /cannot/ "solve" the "problem" of climate change by eliminating the use of fossil fuels. You just can't.

Fossil fuels are the #1 ingredient of most plastics on this planet. There are other plastics that don't use fossil fuels, but oil is the #1 source of most plastic. Your computer monitor, your keyboard, your cell phone case, the buttons on your shirt, the hard tips of your shoelaces, the lining of your running shoe soles, most likely your windowshade, your lanai windows and screens. Your plumbing pipes are likely PVC, which is made with natural gas and salt as the main ingredient. Natural gas is also a fossil fuel.

Using the assumption that climate change a) exists and b) is a problem, you have to accept that it cannot be solved. It will never revert back to the time before it was a problem. That just flat out won't ever happen, unless there's another ice age. So you need to stop trying to tackle the problem with the notion that it can be solved. It can't.

The ONLY thing we can do, as a species, about the assumed problem of climate change, is to reduce our contribution to it. Energy-efficient structures, ADDING alternative renewable fuels to our existing use of fossil fuels to reduce our 100% reliance on them, for example.

Reducing pollution, more eco-friendly use of our waterways - maybe get rid of speed boats entirely. Reducing sport-fishing and encouraging fishing for food instead. We have entire species of animals on the verge of extinction, and they are important parts of OUR food chain. Without them, WE suffer. So we need to do whatever we can, within our means, to prevent that extinction.

What am I doing to that end? My flower and herb beds use no pesticides or chemical fertilizers at all. They attract honeybees and other pollinators, which can thrive and not spread poison from my soil to their nests and hives. I don't kill bugs outside my house, only inside it. I try to walk or ride my bike to the postal station instead of driving. It's a tiny little nothingburger of something I can do to help. But if everyone on the planet added their own tiny little nothingburger, the problem might take a few hundred years longer to become a catastrophe.

I will believe climate change is an existential threat when the Davos people start meeting on Zoom.

Private jet emissions quadrupled as 1,040 planes flew in and out of airports serving Davos during the 2022 World Economic Forum (WEF) meeting.

Look at what we do - not what we say!!!

Actually, if we remember back to the 40s, 50s, 60s - we innovated because the US University system had MANY RESEARCH scientists employed. There were MANY Federal GRANTS for basic RESEARCH. Also, the space program and the race to the moon provided USEFUL, practical products like VELCRO.........That was the Federal Government DOING the innovating, NOT industry.
.........This basically changed in the 1980s when it was decided that the Federal Government was giving away too much MONEY to the Universities. Also about the same time as portrayed in the movie about "greed is good" - the best and the brightest (and the believers in money) of the College Graduates ORBITTED toward Wall Street.

That is the way I remember the History from 1940 onward. Private Industry has NOT been the prime innovator throughout History. As a matter of fact ......industrial GIANTS have often held back innovation. For example, the railroad TYCOONS - they had to be broken up.The oil and gas industry conned the Federal Govenment into paying it to drill long after the reason for the payments had evaporated. Today the oil and gas industry has MEGA lobbyists PREVENTING any meaningful change. And they have been fighting against E-vehicles and E-bikes. Also, look at Facebook, which simply buys up the competition. As does most of the Silicon Valley corporations. The Federal brought these monopolistic Corporations before Congress, but the CEOs of those companies DAZZLED the CongressPeople who did NOT have the capacity to UNDERSTAND them - much less to regulate them. And now currently we have this unmanageable internet mess of a DARK WEB that is seriously threatening US basic liberty and Capitalism itself.

Not ALL, BUT MANY......INDUSTRIAL Corporations are actually INNOVATING, but they are innovating GREED for themselves, not benefits for you and I.

Actually, I knew that someone would bring this up. Those were old-generation nuclear plants. And the Japanese plant was located in a vulnerable location. Today the US's biggest aircraft carrier is powered by a somewhat small nuclear reactor. And the same with submarines. That is what Oliver Stone presented at Davos to the world's pre-eminent business people. Also, I am sure that gas and even coal power plants have had accidents. And as the Chinese found out the hard way, coal burning causes air pollution detrimental to human health. And as I have said before, the pollution drifts upward and ends up causing Global Warming of the type that is increasing at a dangerous rate for the last 8 years.

OK, I will Google Chomsky and I will do that simply because it seems to mean a lot to yourself and I ADMIRE the emotional commitment to your hypothesis.

I agree with the INTENT of what you are saying. I wish everyone realized that animal species are vanishing at a HORRIBLE rate. AND extinct .....NEVER reverses. I may differ in that I feel SOME optimism when I read about things like the Oliver Stone deal of his going to Davos. He IS a busy, important individual who is using his MEGAPHONE to do the right thing for HUMANITY. I do NOT have the same megaphone, so some might say that I should NOT get excited, rock the boat, or BOTHER to type stuff out that only a few people will EVER see.
........I think of it more like a little HOBBY that allows me to IMPROVE my writing and allows me to stay current on News events and what is important to this environment........Village never Never Land.

I agree that it would be better to save our fossil fuels for use in plastics than to just BURN them up. It would probably be better to make as many things out of wood that you could instead of plastics because of the waste accumulation going on at landfills.
......I agree that people each doing little things for the environment like supporting honey bees is very VIRTUOUS.
.......I never believed that the way things ARE has ANY UNCHANGEABLE relationship to the way things SHOULD BE. Life is about constant change.......and the change is happening MORE rapidly with each year.
.......I see a near FUTURE (next 5 years) where many, many MORE people (even old ones here in La la Land) will be trading in their IC engine vehicles for E-vehicles, for E-carts, E-3 wheelers, and for E-bikes. It is starting to trend that way right NOW. Imagine bicycling and you come to a steep hill, what could be nicer than to get a little E-boost up that hill.......better commuting.
........And I could see the oil and gas industry losing its grip on peoples' thinking and people leaning toward electric production from CLEANER sources like Nuclear, wind solar, or WHATEVER the future brings. And the FUTURE is closer than we think.......like about 5 years.
.........OH yes......about your herb garden.......always remember the garden advice........"a thyme in time saves nine"

I would agree to a certain extent and it reminds me that MY personal idol .....Greta Thunberg traveled from Sweden (I think) aboard a boat powered by sails and solar energy. It took her awhile, but she is young and TIME is on her side. It probably would NOT be the BEST thing for the WORLD if Oliver Stone traveled that SAME way....SLOWLY.
..........Oliver Stone is at the PEAK of his productive and artistic life so I don't think if we voted on having him fly or take a slow boat, that the majority would NOT want him to fly. The SAME can be said for Presidents, Congress people, Generals, sports stars, etc. In the future, maybe they can take aircraft and boats powered by Fusion engines and there will be nothing to complain about.

Does the saying "Even a blind squirrel can find an acorn once in a while" ring a bell? He'a a "legendary intellect"? Bwahahaha! He's a bit of a lunatic conspirascy theorist...

That's Oliver Stone... Being a movie producer, or an actor, for that matter means nothing other than you can produce movies or act...

And now you're going with the oil & gas industry "infiltrated the anti-nuke movement???

I gotta' give you credit. You do continue to "jamuse" me! :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

No, I just don't believe that one year (much like one big hurricane) proves anything... It's obvious that you do believe those "non-scientific" stats...

Stone hasn't directed a non-conspiracy movie in 20 years...

He went off the deep end decades ago...

And here's what your idol does when she's alone...

"Plastics"...

https://cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.im...ANECBVHB3U.jpg

++++ to all you said. Perfectly said. Thank you.