[DAWN MARIE]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

I have been searching for 33 years and nothing. Count yourself very fortunate. Even if your wrong you have gained a lifetime of peaceful living. I envy what you have archived. I am slipping more away from faith every day.

Really? I think the whole interest you have is worth merit. Don't give up. Keep at it. If you genuinely want God in your life...go to him...ask him. Read his Word, and pray, pray, pray for wisdom and guidance. He will make himself known to you in an amazing way. Be honest. Be sincere and keep waiting. It's all God's timing...not ours.

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by DAWN MARIE

Really? I think the whole interest you have is worth merit. Don't give up. Keep at it. If you genuinely want God in your life...go to him...ask him. Read his Word, and pray, pray, pray for wisdom and guidance. He will make himself known to you in an amazing way. Be honest. Be sincere and keep waiting. It's all God's timing...not ours.

Thanks and I am still hanging on. Both my wife and my families are faithful. The all refer to me as the heathen. Probably a scripture for that little smack.

[rubicon]

In earlier posts there was a go about concerning whether South Baptist require people to be re-baptized . The suggestion was denied as being inaccurate . To make a point let me share with you that when I lived in Memphis both of my children (catholic) were told by SB that they were going to hell and to be saved they had to be re-baptized.

I believe and understand that the people spouting these beliefs were probably mis-interpreting their church doctrine,,,,but that is the point

Far too many people of faith seem to pick and choose off the documentary menu.

Bottom line for me is that a God/Jesus of love could not create me to be me and then deny me paradise because my cerebral pursuit of the truth left me with more questions than answers. Why is it that Bill Graham the Pope, etc knows more about [t]he truth than others

[Carl in Tampa]

Originally Posted by rubicon

In earlier posts there was a go about concerning whether South Baptist require people to be re-baptized . The suggestion was denied as being inaccurate . To make a point let me share with you that when I lived in Memphis both of my children (catholic) were told by SB that they were going to hell and to be saved they had to be re-baptized.

I believe and understand that the people spouting these beliefs were probably mis-interpreting their church doctrine,,,,but that is the point

Far too many people of faith seem to pick and choose off the documentary menu.

Bottom line for me is that a God/Jesus of love could not create me to be me and then deny me paradise because my cerebral pursuit of the truth left me with more questions than answers. Why is it that Bill Graham the Pope, etc knows more about [t]he truth than others

You are correct that if a person purporting to be Southern Baptist said that baptism was required for salvation, they were mistaken.

This, from an official Southern Baptist web site: " Southern Baptists have always understood the Bible to teach that baptism is not a part of salvation, but subsequent to it (Luke 23:42-43; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:21-22, 10:9-10, 11:5-6; Ephesians 2:8-9; 1 John 5:12-13). Southern Baptist churches teach that baptism is purely emblematic in nature and not essential to salvation."

International Mission Board :: News & Information

You mention Billy Graham. You might be interested to know that he received infant baptism in a Presbyterian church, but as an adult he was re-baptized and has spent the rest of his life as a Southern Baptist.

Billy Graham and the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association - Historical Background

.

[donb9006]

Originally Posted by DAWN MARIE

I see what your problem is. You are going to people outside of the religion who will answer what you wish to hear. You're saying yourself they are "more honest?" Based on what criteria?

If you're going to go to Africa and have never been there before, do you get your information from people who have never left their home town, or do you seek those who have traveled abroad and more importantly been to Africa?

You're getting bad information. Matthew wrote the book of Matthew. Mark wrote the book of Mark most likely with Peter's help. Luke wrote Luke and John wrote John...and most scholars DO believe that.

John also wrote 1,2,3 John and Revelation. The letters written by Paul were sent to churches and addressed to them as letters.

Have you even read this book? I mean, really read it?

The best person to go to for answers is the one whom you are avoiding. God said himself in His Book that those who truly seek me will find me. We did that. That's why we are so convinced that He is real and His book is much more than a book written with the hand of man.

You assume too much Dawn... I have listened to BOTH sides. I've read the Bible, Had courses in Jesus, Early and late Christianity, Gnostics, Books that were omitted during Canonizing. Roman history, I really have tried. I told you, my search was for what I was missing. And I concluded I'm not missing anything. Christianity is just one of many MAJOR religions, all different, all filled with believers that would give their life for it. There are too many DIFFERENT true believers. I'm convinced you're all wrong. That people are born to follow. We're more herd like than we'd like to admit. That and the teaching starts at a VERY early age with malleable brains. Religion breaks down to "you are where you grew up and lived". Religion is regional.

If there WERE any evidence, it would help, but you don't have any. Just believers writing about believers. You NEED outside eyes looking at you "proof" too.

That's just it...you have NOBODY writing who's been to Africa. Nobody writing the NT met Jesus. There is nothing by Jesus or anyone who personally met him...nothing. That's VERY troubling to me. Paul is to Christianity as Muhammed is to Islam. It's really the religion of one man.

From Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament#Authors

Authorship is an area of longstanding and current research and debate, with different works posing different problems for identification. While the various works have traditional ascriptions of authorship, these ascriptions are in some cases defended by scholars, and in other cases disputed or rejected.[26] None of the Gospel authors is thought to be an eyewitness, and none claims to be. There is a broad consensus that many of the books of the New Testament were not written by the people whose names are attached to them.[27]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

I have been searching for 33 years and nothing. Count yourself very fortunate. Even if your wrong you have gained a lifetime of peaceful living. I envy what you have archived. I am slipping more away from faith every day.

Make your own peace. It's what "finding God" is anyway. They ascribe it to God, I'd say it's becoming comfortable with oneself. They use God as a placebo to find the cure to their ills.

Originally Posted by rubicon

In earlier posts there was a go about concerning whether South Baptist require people to be re-baptized . The suggestion was denied as being inaccurate . To make a point let me share with you that when I lived in Memphis both of my children (catholic) were told by SB that they were going to hell and to be saved they had to be re-baptized.

I believe and understand that the people spouting these beliefs were probably mis-interpreting their church doctrine,,,,but that is the point

Far too many people of faith seem to pick and choose off the documentary menu.

Bottom line for me is that a God/Jesus of love could not create me to be me and then deny me paradise because my cerebral pursuit of the truth left me with more questions than answers. Why is it that Bill Graham the Pope, etc knows more about [t]he truth than others

That quite a problem...and you never hear anyone address it...relativism...gotta love it!

Exactly, a God who gives free will and then punishes when you actually use it? I don't think so...

Gotta run, wish I could go more deeply...

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by rubicon

bottom line for me is that a god/jesus of love could not create me to be me and then deny me paradise because my cerebral pursuit of the truth left me with more questions than answers.

bingo

[ilovetv]

Catholic Bible

Ephesians 2

Generosity of God’s Plan.

1 You were dead in your transgressions and sins

2 in which you once lived following the age of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient.

3 All of us once lived among them in the desires of our flesh, following the wishes of the flesh and the impulses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us,

5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ* (by grace you have been saved),

6 raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus,

7 that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;

9 it is not from works, so no one may boast

scripture

[DAWN MARIE]

Originally Posted by donb9006

That quite a problem...and you never hear anyone address it...relativism...gotta love it!

Exactly, a God who gives free will and then punishes when you actually use it? I don't think so...

Gotta run, wish I could go more deeply...

I'm not much into relativism.

Let's talk about free will here tho. What happens when you use your "free will" to break a law? To physically hurt someone? Happens all the time. People use their free will and then go to jail for it.

Same here. Go ahead. Use your free will. See how far that will get you in God's court of law.

[Easyrider]

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

bingo

As a tree falls so shall it lie. Telling ourselves such things won't change what we fail to do here..

[Golfingnut]

Wow. I have to read real slow to absorb these latest posts. I would say we have some very knowledgable posters on both banks of this river.

[DougB]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

Wow. I have to read real slow to absorb these latest posts. I would say we have some very knowledgable posters on both banks of this river.

Or, the opposite.

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by DougB

Or, the opposite.

Hi DougB: I have to agree and include myself in what I refer to "intellecutualizing oneself into stupidity". It is often said of intellectual elitist who believe that they are so far superior intellectually above all others that only their opinion matters and literally ignore the opinions of others . And in refrain I say "out of the mouths of babe's" Indeed many adult has learned from the words or actions of a child, perhaps its because their motives are pure and free from confirmation bias that is to say they haven't been contaminated yet.

Take for instance the issue of in the name of God or religions many wars have been fought and many people savagely and needlessly slaughtered True enough.

On the other hand so too have these events occurred because of secular disputes ( territorial disputes, ideologies such as socialism. communism, ethnicity even custom (we raid your village we raid yours its what our ancestors did)).

My comments regarding interpretation of church dogma refer to meaning and re-reading my comments I mistakenly made a point of relativism which was not intended

I also made reference to a good faith effort to pursue truth and unable to do so resulting in the loss of paradise seemed incongruent. The counter to this was well we have free will but if you choose wrong and steal you go to jail. Fair enough but what about the mentally challenged individual that was created by God does that soul pay a penalty also? I mean I can't know what I don't know. What about Adam and Eve and the billions upon billions of their descendants that came before 1AD? And what about the people who live today that have never been touched by Christianity such as the newly discovered bush people of the Amazon?

Having said all that it is my belief that we are better served believing in something greater than ourselves and why I believe religion has served mankind well because history has taught us that in such a vacuum totalitarian despots are created.

[tucson]

God has the ability to make Himself known to people who've never been exposed to Christian missionaries and/or the Bible. There is many Muslims in the mideast who are having visions, dreams and even experiences today with the LIVING God, He is able to touch souls in a way that no man can. He says, try Me if I will not pour out a blessing upon you, ask of me, you must come to Him as a "child" ie; with childlike faith believing He IS.... People believe there is air, I've never heard of anyone ever doubting that fact. But, they cannot SEE air, or FEEL air, that is how it is with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Test Him today, ask Him for His wisdom and His knowledge, He will give you all and more than your hearts desire.....

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by rubicon

Hi DougB: I have to agree and include myself in what I refer to "intellecutualizing oneself into stupidity". It is often said of intellectual elitist who believe that they are so far superior intellectually above all others that only their opinion matters and literally ignore the opinions of others . And in refrain I say "out of the mouths of babe's" Indeed many adult has learned from the words or actions of a child, perhaps its because their motives are pure and free from confirmation bias that is to say they haven't been contaminated yet.

Take for instance the issue of in the name of God or religions many wars have been fought and many people savagely and needlessly slaughtered True enough.

On the other hand so too have these events occurred because of secular disputes ( territorial disputes, ideologies such as socialism. communism, ethnicity even custom (we raid your village we raid yours its what our ancestors did)).

My comments regarding interpretation of church dogma refer to meaning and re-reading my comments I mistakenly made a point of relativism which was not intended

I also made reference to a good faith effort to pursue truth and unable to do so resulting in the loss of paradise seemed incongruent. The counter to this was well we have free will but if you choose wrong and steal you go to jail. Fair enough but what about the mentally challenged individual that was created by God does that soul pay a penalty also? I mean I can't know what I don't know. What about Adam and Eve and the billions upon billions of their descendants that came before 1AD? And what about the people who live today that have never been touched by Christianity such as the newly discovered bush people of the Amazon?

Having said all that it is my belief that we are better served believing in something greater than ourselves and why I believe religion has served mankind well because history has taught us that in such a vacuum totalitarian despots are created.

There is something about you, Rubicon, that always shows fairness, good sense, a balanced way of viewing the world around you and just plain kindness. You are very bright but never scathing. You have added so many good things to my day over time.


Thank you.

[DAWN MARIE]

Originally Posted by rubicon

I also made reference to a good faith effort to pursue truth and unable to do so resulting in the loss of paradise seemed incongruent. The counter to this was well we have free will but if you choose wrong and steal you go to jail. Fair enough but what about the mentally challenged individual that was created by God does that soul pay a penalty also? I mean I can't know what I don't know. What about Adam and Eve and the billions upon billions of their descendants that came before 1AD? And what about the people who live today that have never been touched by Christianity such as the newly discovered bush people of the Amazon?

Much of your angst against the bible and/or religion isn't unique. There are literally myriads of others just like you. I've heard these same arguments over and over. I used to have a blog site called "Kickin For Christ" where I would try my best to answer, guide and explain the reason for my faith and the journey it took me to get to where I am now.

It's like if I answer a question they would go onto another objection without commenting on the current one we had been discussing. This showed me they didn't really want an answer but to try and justify their unbelief.

So now you go to Adam, Eve, People of the Amazon and mentally challenged. The answers are all in that book I asked if you read and studied.

I'll take one of your objections for brevity: Adam and Eve and their descendants. They were saved the same way those AFTER the cross were saved. They looked FORWARD in anticipation to the Messiah who would come to take their sin from them and we look BACK in thanksgiving that HE did come and take away our sin from us. Belief. Faith. We are saved by faith thru Grace.

The bible is like a big puzzle. As we put the pieces together we start to see a beautiful picture that was once before a jumbled mess in front of us. Piece by piece in the right place makes a world of difference. I've got a big part of the puzzle put together but still have a ways to go. I'm not finished...but I can tell you this...what I've been seeing these last 40 years of putting this puzzle together is astounding.