[rubicon]

Originally Posted by DAWN MARIE

Much of your angst against the bible and/or religion isn't unique. There are literally myriads of others just like you. I've heard these same arguments over and over. I used to have a blog site called "Kickin For Christ" where I would try my best to answer, guide and explain the reason for my faith and the journey it took me to get to where I am now.

It's like if I answer a question they would go onto another objection without commenting on the current one we had been discussing. This showed me they didn't really want an answer but to try and justify their unbelief.

So now you go to Adam, Eve, People of the Amazon and mentally challenged. The answers are all in that book I asked if you read and studied.

I'll take one of your objections for brevity: Adam and Eve and their descendants. They were saved the same way those AFTER the cross were saved. They looked FORWARD in anticipation to the Messiah who would come to take their sin from them and we look BACK in thanksgiving that HE did come and take away our sin from us. Belief. Faith. We are saved by faith thru Grace.

The bible is like a big puzzle. As we put the pieces together we start to see a beautiful picture that was once before a jumbled mess in front of us. Piece by piece in the right place makes a world of difference. I've got a big part of the puzzle put together but still have a ways to go. I'm not finished...but I can tell you this...what I've been seeing these last 40 years of putting this puzzle together is astounding.

DawnMarie: I have said in previous posts that I envy people of faith because they are content to put their trust in the Lord and that is a good way to live.

This big puzzle you speak of confronts us all. I left home at the age of 17 believing I had been conditioned to think and act a certain way. I vowed to strip myself of all previous dogma and to begin again as sort a rebirth. Like you I have studied and stayed open to and respect every ideology, except that which we broadly define as evil. People like me (pragmatic, naturalist, objective leaning, science based) cannot enter faith as a child because we cannot surrender ourselves. so what makes us good makes us bad but that is our DNA makeup. I do pray and I do obey the 10 commandments because my senses tell me these are good things to do. I do not lie or steal or covet my neighbors goods because my senses tell me they are bad things for me and for society and most importantly I always wanted to set good example for my children. I advanced my education my career. I sacrificed and suffered pain and disappointment in silence. these are things good parents do. My mother once told me that of all her children I had the purest heart ...lucky for me it was over the phone at the time and for obvious reasons. Just as a mother knows her children's heart I suspect a God of love knows his childrens' hearts and in knowing their heart he will know their destinations , if that be the truth

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

There is something about you, Rubicon, that always shows fairness, good sense, a balanced way of viewing the world around you and just plain kindness. You are very bright but never scathing. You have added so many good things to my day over time.


Thank you.

Ditto!

[DAWN MARIE]

Originally Posted by rubicon

This big puzzle you speak of confronts us all. I left home at the age of 17 believing I had been conditioned to think and act a certain way. I vowed to strip myself of all previous dogma and to begin again as sort a rebirth. Like you I have studied and stayed open to and respect every ideology, except that which we broadly define as evil. People like me (pragmatic, naturalist, objective leaning, science based) cannot enter faith as a child because we cannot surrender ourselves. so what makes us good makes us bad but that is our DNA makeup. I do pray and I do obey the 10 commandments because my senses tell me these are good things to do. I do not lie or steal or covet my neighbors goods because my senses tell me they are bad things for me and for society and most importantly I always wanted to set good example for my children. I advanced my education my career. I sacrificed and suffered pain and disappointment in silence. these are things good parents do. My mother once told me that of all her children I had the purest heart ...lucky for me it was over the phone at the time and for obvious reasons. Just as a mother knows her children's heart I suspect a God of love knows his childrens' hearts and in knowing their heart he will know their destinations , if that be the truth

Can I ask? Did you start off RC by any chance?

I appreciate your sharing and I'm always interested in the paths people have been on. You sound like a very good person. I have a book by Andy Stanley that I lend out called "How Good is Good Enough?"

It's very interesting. Basically it comes down to we can't be good enough. That's why Christ came. Only he was able to keep the whole Law where we could not. Only He was able to satisfy God's attribute of Justice. Only He was able to satisfy God's wrath over sinful mankind. Somebody had to do it because we were ALL destined for judgment because we have ALL broken God's law. You break a law here, you go to jail. You break God's law, you go before the judge and suffer the consequences which basically is a Godless eternity or what we normally call Hell.

Your description about being objective, pragmatic, science leaning etc...is also a description of my son. He is a Neuro Scientist Ph.D and is a very very strong Christian. I could tell you stories about what he's up against in the Science World. He's definitely an oddity in today's world but in yesteryear, it wasn't uncommon to be a Scientist and a Christian. Many well known Scientists were Christians back in the day. Today it isn't normative.

Keep in mind tho...we are NOT all God's children. Only those who are called by His name and are following Him are. We are all his creation but not all his children. I would suggest you read the whole book of John . Read one chapter a day and you'll be done in three weeks. And pray over it. it could be life changing for you. If you consider doing so, I'll be a prayer warrior on your behalf. We'll see if God shows up big and strong in your life and you will envy no more because He will be a reality to you.

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by DAWN MARIE

Can I ask? Did you start off RC by any chance?

I appreciate your sharing and I'm always interested in the paths people have been on. You sound like a very good person. I have a book by Andy Stanley that I lend out called "How Good is Good Enough?"

It's very interesting. Basically it comes down to we can't be good enough. That's why Christ came. Only he was able to keep the whole Law where we could not. Only He was able to satisfy God's attribute of Justice. Only He was able to satisfy God's wrath over sinful mankind. Somebody had to do it because we were ALL destined for judgment because we have ALL broken God's law. You break a law here, you go to jail. You break God's law, you go before the judge and suffer the consequences which basically is a Godless eternity or what we normally call Hell.

Your description about being objective, pragmatic, science leaning etc...is also a description of my son. He is a Neuro Scientist Ph.D and is a very very strong Christian. I could tell you stories about what he's up against in the Science World. He's definitely an oddity in today's world but in yesteryear, it wasn't uncommon to be a Scientist and a Christian. Many well known Scientists were Christians back in the day. Today it isn't normative.

Keep in mind tho...we are NOT all God's children. Only those who are called by His name and are following Him are. We are all his creation but not all his children. I would suggest you read the whole book of John . Read one chapter a day and you'll be done in three weeks. And pray over it. it could be life changing for you. If you consider doing so, I'll be a prayer warrior on your behalf. We'll see if God shows up big and strong in your life and you will envy no more because He will be a reality to you.

Dawnmarie: I can use all the prayers I can get. I believe in the power of prayer but perhaps for different reasons than some.

I compliment both you and your son for his great educational accomplishment and expect he is successful in his career. I do not see a contradiction of a scientist being a Christian and in fact supports such a believer because of the faith flowing from the scientist to people certainly has a positive affect on the personal lives of the people involved in his life.

and as an aside at a time when I was gravely ill a nurse asked for permission to lay hands on me and pray. I was not offended and appreciated her concern

I was baptized a Roman Catholic and my story follows most catholic boys altar boy, etc. Of all Christian faiths being catholic fit me best.

However the dividing issue for me is that like any organization large or small politics inserts itself and then God's word or the interpretation thereof is subjected to the political or personal ideological whims of a human being. The result is that it becomes the singer and not the song. Ergo I can approach my God as a child because if I believe then he is my Father but I cannot and will not surrender myself to a human being who may or may not be a better person than me.

Unlike many people I enjoy discussing politics and religion and find people's responses, beliefs, approaches etc stimulating , educational and often in awe as the unique approaches taken by some

And, so Dawn Marie I appreciate your candor and your point of view and the time you take sharing . Life is complicated and that's what makes it worth living.


Personal Best Regards:

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by rubicon

However the dividing issue for me is that like any organization large or small politics inserts itself and then God's word or the interpretation thereof is subjected to the political or personal ideological whims of a human being. The result is that it becomes the singer and not the song. Ergo I can approach my God as a child because if I believe then he is my Father but I cannot and will not surrender myself to a human being who may or may not be a better person than me.

Personal Best Regards:

Once again, well said Rubi, I am in complete agreement, although I do attend church services, as I have found ones that I am comfortable with, which keep things relatively apolitical, and upbeat. I don't look at the pastors as someone to surrender to, but rather someone who has studied and is a good educator and interesting speaker, nothing more, nothing less.

[2BNTV]

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

Once again, well said Rubi, I am in complete agreement, although I do attend church services, as I have found ones that I am comfortable with, which keep things relatively apolitical, and upbeat. I don't look at the pastors as someone to surrender to, but rather someone who has studied and is a good educator and interesting speaker, nothing more, nothing less.

The pastor should be able to explain the bible in ways, in one's relationship to GOD,and the things that happen that affect, each and every one of us. He is there to teach and sheppered his flock, to doing what is right, in the eyes of GOD and his fellow man. The second greatest commandment is, "to love one another as I have loved you".

I wouldn't put another human being above me either, but don't discount the counsel of one who should be wise, in the ways of the world. I have seen some church people who expound on their limited knowledge on their interpritation of the bible, that leaves a lot to be desired.

One should know what it is in their heart, before looking to others, who may be more flawed in their thinking. IMHO

[onslowe]

I really thank the authors of the last three posts. Like Rubicon, I started out as an RC, then I went to the Episcopal Church for a number of years but found I needed a more Scripture based and tradition respecting place of worship for my personal spiritual needs. I have been blessed by the nearness of several Anglican (Anglo-Catholic) churches here, and am very happy at St George Anglican in Ocala.

Like Ed, too, I would not elevate any other human above me. Pedestals always fail some how and my shattered expectations then cause resentments. Problems have occurred when clergy were mistakenly placed 'above it all' by some well meaning lay persons. Great phrase above- the singer becomes more important than the song. I go to church to worship to learn, and be edified in my faith through my religion.
Then as always, Brother Joe knocks it right out of the park with his wonderful words and insight. Thanks much.

[Parker]

Great big group hug for all those seeking understanding with sincere hearts. God bless us all in that pursuit.

[DAWN MARIE]

Originally Posted by rubicon

Dawnmarie: I can use all the prayers I can get. I believe in the power of prayer but perhaps for different reasons than some.

I compliment both you and your son for his great educational accomplishment and expect he is successful in his career.

I was baptized a Roman Catholic and my story follows most catholic boys altar boy, etc. Of all Christian faiths being catholic fit me best.

However the dividing issue for me is that like any organization large or small politics inserts itself and then God's word or the interpretation thereof is subjected to the political or personal ideological whims of a human being. The result is that it becomes the singer and not the song. Ergo I can approach my God as a child because if I believe then he is my Father but I cannot and will not surrender myself to a human being who may or may not be a better person than me.

And, so Dawn Marie I appreciate your candor and your point of view and the time you take sharing . Life is complicated and that's what makes it worth living.

Personal Best Regards:

A few thoughts Rubicon...my son (one of three) is very successful as a Scientist but he has kept his mouth shut about his faith for the most part in order to achieve this success. He said once he made a name for himself he would be able to speak and he was not about to do that until he received his doctorate. He recently cured epilepsy in adult mice which has never been done and finds himself somewhat of a rock star in the epileptic world. He's been written up in several Science Journals and recently received a million dollar grant from the government to continue his research. God has certainly blessed him for being faithful.

Even though you didn't say I was pretty sure I could read RC between the lines. I came out of that religion as well as my husband who was also an altar boy and thought hard about becoming a Priest.

I do have to say Doctrine DOES matter. It's the ONLY way to fight heresy. The RCC was not a good church when it came to bible reading. They wanted you to rely on them alone and that is not a good thing. God wants us in His book, reading, studying and meditating on it. It's His word to us. It's great to pray and meditate on God but in order to have a relationship with Him it has to be two way. it can't be all about you talking to him without you listening to His heart via His Word.

When we become Christ followers (born again is a term used in Scripture) God gives us certain gifts. For some, it's Pastors, others teachers, helpers, some gift of compassion, discernment, etc. The comparison is liken to a body. We are not all arms, toes, or legs. The body is made up of diff parts. So too is the body of Christ. He has appointed Pastors and teachers to help us. We are to surrender to God alone but there's nothing wrong with being under a teaching of another gifted by God. Paul wrote to follow him as he followed Christ. Everything, everything...tho has to be examined in the light of Scripture. Paul had no problem with the Bareans who checked Paul out by examining the Scripture themselves to see if Paul was telling the truth.

Life is complicated filled with many trials and tribulations...it's only going to get worse. I do believe Satan is real and that there is a battle that has been going on since the beginning. We can't see it but we can see the evidence of it. I thank God for His Spirit and His Word to guide me in these very uncertain times.

Blessings to you Rubicon.

[DAWN MARIE]

Originally Posted by Parker

Great big group hug for all those seeking understanding with sincere hearts. God bless us all in that pursuit.

Yes...God knows and is the great discerner of the heart. Only He knows what is in the heart of man.

[DaleMN]

The Shadow knows......