[rubicon]

To those who discounted guards at Columbine the fact is that upon seeing the armed guards the assliants rushed to the library where they killed themselves thus many more lives were saved.

to those who seek gun control remeber all it will do is create an underground much like Prohibtion and like illegal drugs now and to boot run by the criminal element.

Consider:

On the same day as Sandy Hook a armed man ,Min Yinjung stabbed and killed twenty elementary students in china and wounded 50 more.In 1999 a man, Sreven Abrams in California drove his car onto a playground killing two children. i could cite you more but you get the point

I said on another thread devoted to this tragedy that the underlying cause dates back to the 1960's when the news media educational intellectuals judges etc condoned people's lack of self restrained and discpline.

Its kool to be bad kids see it in all forms of the media. Jane Fonda made it kool. Lindsey Lohan made it kool, We have seen so much of it for the past 40 odd years that we think it is normal.

Gun control is the politically expedient answer because people only emote/react today they don't think and reason because that's what our educational system has taught us.

How many people living here today could go westward and open up new frontiers?

Where have all the rugged individuals gone? GG is right it won't get solved because american are too reactive too emotional today and unwilling to dialogue all because of that thing called poltical corectness.

[janmcn]

Where do you get your information? All the reports I read said that none of the children stabbed in China died.

[MelZ]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

John Lott, really. You can't be serious. LOL Please spare me.

so much for intelligent discourse, John Lott bring more to the table and Piers Morgan.

[ugotme]

With all due respect - there is not just one pat answer to this problem - be it pro or anti gun. someone hell-bent on harming - killing - someone or many will find a way.

[QUOTE=senior citizen;598069]A merchant has to protect themselves. No one else will/QUOTE]

To use part of your quote above, this is very true. What happens if someone breaks into your home? Yes, of course you call the police. However, in the minutes it takes to respond a lot of damage could be inflicted. Not trying to sway anyone here - seriously!

Personally, I have been target shooting for years and have instructed many people. Quite frankly I don't know how I would react - never having been trained such as a police officer. My "gut" tells me that I would grab my handgun and react by protecting my family. If it is him or me - I certainly hope it will be him !

Said it before - there are just NO EASY ANSWERS !

Wish there were !

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by janmcn

Where do you get your information? All the reports I read said that none of the children stabbed in China died.

janmcn: My apology I errored and unfortunately it seems it is even worse. what the article stated was that Min Yingjun stabbed 22 elementary children so you are right none died. However the article when on to report that in similar assaults using knives killed 20 children and wounded 50 in china last year. (WSJ 12/19/12) so we have multiple attacks in china with knives. so apparently copy cats copy.

[LndLocked]

John Lott!?!?!??! seriously?? He was proven to be a complete fraud when he was completely unable to prove the existence of the "study" that was central to his premise of more guns = less crime.

Why is the media rehabilitating John Lott? - Salon.com

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by MelZ

so much for intelligent discourse, John Lott bring more to the table and Piers Morgan.

John Lott is a dangerous misguided Fool. I think he actually believes the garbage he spews; however, he is so wrong in his views on guns in America I find him pitiful and embarrassing to listen to. I base my opinion on watching him speak and reviewing the content of his website. Scary and deranged. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

I have read the quoted post a few times, but sorry, I still can't seem to get an accurate understanding of what you are trying to say.

[manaboutown]

Originally Posted by blueash

And Canada, UK, Australia, France, Germany etc etc which are much better examples of countries with strong governments, non-corrupted police and military, first world nations, like the USA have strong gun regulations and miniscule gun murder rates. Please, if you are trying to make comparisons to other countries, picks ones most like ours for this issue at hand.

Perhaps where you have lived or currently reside in the US one does not have corruption, high crime rates or have to press one for English as I do.

I grew up in New Mexico which is pretty darn crime ridden and corrupt. Being a border state and over 44% Hispanic it has a culture in many ways not much unlike that of Mexico. I now live in Southern California which is 37% Hispanic and has a huge number of people from Mexico. I have spent time in Arizona. My brother lived for many years in Key Biscayne in a very expensive oceanside high rise condominium. When we ate dinner in the restaurant at the complex we were almost always the only people speaking English and I observed several tables with body guards present. These areas of the United States are heavily influenced by the lifestyles, values and mores immigrants from Mexico and other Latin American countries bring with them. Ever notice the bars over the windows in many of the homes in Southwestern cities?

I have spent time in various parts of Canada, the UK, NZ, Germany and Scandinavia. They do feel somewhat like our Northeast and Midwest culturally so perhaps that is whereof you write. Actually France reminds me of Mexico in many ways. They share Napoleonic Code backgrounds. By the way, the French and Germans just love the Southwest US. Friends of mine in France own six shooters and even dress up as cowboys, big hat, boots, wide belt with a huge buckle, low riding holsters, and have quick draw contests in addition to more conventional shooting contests. They just love to shoot guns. I have taken a couple of them cowboy boots, quick draw holsters and such as house gifts.

[Bonnevie]

I just find it interesting that the NRA has no problem suggesting all mental health patients be put on a list but refuses to consider that for NRA members. Why are NRA rights more important than people who may have a mental condition? Most of these people are non-violent, law abiding citizens. It will be interesting to see the video game lobby go up against the NRA lobby.

I believe everyone has a right to be able to defend themselves. I just don't think they need military assault type weapons to do so, nor huge ammunition clips. There was a ban in place once and the NRA survived, another ban won't hurt them. Will it guarantee no more violence? of course not, all the weapons out there will be grandfathered in. But anything that can be done to lessen the chance should be done.

Plus, everyone thinks that all people who have gun permits are always in control. At my son's school, a student in a fraternity was showing off his assault type weapon and "didn't realize" it was loaded and killed his girlfriends sister. He had been drinking and using drugs. He's now serving a long sentence for manslaughter. He owned the gun legally and he's not "mentally ill". You can't stop stupid.

[manaboutown]

Originally Posted by hope2soon

Plus, everyone thinks that all people who have gun permits are always in control. At my son's school, a student in a fraternity was showing off his assault type weapon and "didn't realize" it was loaded and killed his girlfriends sister. He had been drinking and using drugs. He's now serving a long sentence for manslaughter. He owned the gun legally and he's not "mentally ill". You can't stop stupid.

When I was in college one of my fraternity brothers, a licensed driver, was taking a carload of sorority girls home in his car after heavily drinking at a party. He drove the car off a bridge! He was not mentally ill either, but indeed, you cannot stop stupid.

[justjim]

Sometimes the right question is, are we asking the right question. Abraham Lincoln.

In the discussion of teachers being armed or armed Police/Guard at our schools, the right question is will the local school board approve such an arrangement??? They will have the last say IMHO. A few might but most will not. Will Congress ban "assault weapons"??? I believe they will ban certain types of guns and the President will sign it into law in 2013. But not without much discussion and a "fight" with the NRA.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Trish Crocker

From what I have heard, unless you are a 'hothead' the average person will hesitate before pulling a trigger, even if they feel threatened. It is during this moment of hesitation that the assailant gets the upper hand. The common statement that criminals will find a way to get a weapon may be true, but a scarcity of weapons would drive up the price, therefore not every nut would be able to afford one. I'm not sure I can accept the idea that some form of gun control is contrary to the Constitution. I don't think the founding fathers were talking about assault weapons and arsenals. At the time the constitution was written, there were no phones to call for help when you found someone lurking around your property, many people live miles from any town or city and needed protection. In this case, the only viable solution would be to arm yourselves. It seems to me that the same constitution that allows this 'freedom' is the constitution that denied women the right to vote and was then changed when people realized the stupidity of the this law. We have the right to seek change when it is causing harm to United States Citizens.

...that would very carefully define what kinds of weapons should be banned from the United States except for in the hands of serving military and those weapons should be kept on base and locked under guards and other security measures.

I did a paper for a Legal History Class at the University of Minnesota Law School (Class of 1989) of the various Minnesota appellate decisions on the Prohibition laws against liquor and every case I looked at involved a lawyer pushing another hole through the Minnesota and US Prohibition laws. It was very hard for the lawmakers to write any law that forbad liquor that some lawyer in Minnesota could not find a loophole to allow his or her client to get off of the fine and/or jail sentence. The law makers kept on revising the law while the lawyers kept on finding a new technicality to work to absolve their clients.

It is going to take some very astute lawyers to write some kind of Constituitional Amendment at the Federal and State levels to ban certain types of weapons.

I also expect that there is going to be a lot of political machinations to get any kind of meaningful ban in place.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by hope2soon

I just find it interesting that the NRA has no problem suggesting all mental health patients be put on a list but refuses to consider that for NRA members. Why are NRA rights more important than people who may have a mental condition? Most of these people are non-violent, law abiding citizens. It will be interesting to see the video game lobby go up against the NRA lobby.

I believe everyone has a right to be able to defend themselves. I just don't think they need military assault type weapons to do so, nor huge ammunition clips. There was a ban in place once and the NRA survived, another ban won't hurt them. Will it guarantee no more violence? of course not, all the weapons out there will be grandfathered in. But anything that can be done to lessen the chance should be done.

Plus, everyone thinks that all people who have gun permits are always in control. At my son's school, a student in a fraternity was showing off his assault type weapon and "didn't realize" it was loaded and killed his girlfriends sister. He had been drinking and using drugs. He's now serving a long sentence for manslaughter. He owned the gun legally and he's not "mentally ill". You can't stop stupid.

That's scary that the NRA wants to mental health laws back to what sounds like the dark ages of human rights for those with some kind of mental illness. The stigma is bad enough now without lists of those with mental health problems showing up on the Internet. The NRA should look at how many people have been committed just in Florida. Florida's Baker Act: Involuntary Exams for Mental Health | Suite101


"Provisions of the Baker Act require reporting of statistics regarding the operation of the law. According to data collected by the Department of Mental Health Law and Policy at the University of South Florida, there were more than 70,000 involuntary examinations in 1997. By 2009, the most recent year for which statistics are available document 136,120 involuntary examinations initiated, nearly twice as many as 1997."

Read more at Suite101: Florida's Baker Act: Involuntary Exams for Mental Health | Suite101 http://suite101.com/article/floridas...#ixzz2FogOSWGo
Follow us: @suite101 on Twitter | Suite101 on Facebook

[justjim]

Assault Weapons ban of 1994 approved by Congress and signed by President Clinton in September 1994 had a 10 year life and expired on September 2004. Since that time a ban has been unable to make it to the House of Representives.

[ugotme]

I post this not to defend the NRA - I post this just because:


COLUMBINE STUDENT'S FATHER 12 YEARS LATER!!

Guess our national leaders didn't expect this. On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful.
They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:

"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good &evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers.
"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart.
"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent
I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy -- it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best.

Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!

"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact.
What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws.
Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.

"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him.

To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA -- I give to you a sincere challenge.. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone!
My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!"
- Darrell Scott