[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by Byte1

Apparently, you misunderstood my posts. Where was I saying that the EV is not for me? I never even said that the EV was a bad idea. I said it was an incomplete idea that was prematurely released with the intention of replacing the ICE. I also said that folks that support the EV are making excuses for it's limits. I also said that I own a battery powered golf cart and I add that I also own ONLY battery powered tools (except my saw). To be honest with you, I also find the battery powered tools that I own to be anemic compared to the same tools powered by fossil fuel. But, I did not wish to store gasoline in my garage. My preference.
Let me reiterate that when I read posts that state that the EV "will" be great eventually, or that the EV "is good IF" the weather is right, or they are charged over night in you garage (as if everyone has a garage). Or, the EV is fine if you don't have to travel a long way, or as long as you are not waiting in a line to charge it, etc. I hear a lot of excuses for them not being as good as ICE vehicles. So, I am sure you will agree that they are not yet ready for prime time, as I said a couple of times in response to those excuses. My motorcycle does not make claims as a replacement for a car. It is a novelty or luxury, nothing more. If an EV cannot meet th e standards or requirements of an ICE vehicle, it is nothing more than a novelty or luxury, not meant for real time.

I believe I understand you very well. Perhaps you don't recognize the bias in your thinking.

The motorcycle is not a luxury or a novelty, it is a mode of transportation. It was my only means of transportation for several years and my primary means for even more. In some environments it works well and in others it works poorly. Depending on what you need a car to to be able to do, it is a good replacement for a car.

An EV is a good replacement for an ICE depending on what you need the vehicle to be able to do.

if you want to say that anything that qualifies to be a replacement for a car must run on gasoline then no, the EV does not fit the bill though a motorcycle will. If you say that anything that qualifies to be a replacement for a car must provide heating, air conditioning, and protection from the rain then an EV will work fine but a motorcycle will not. it all depends on your needs (or in your words, standards).

Apparently, an EV does not meet that standards *you* require for a prime-time vehicle. However, for many people an EV is quite sufficient. Perhaps the Toyota Corolla, Toyota Prius, Chevrolet Corvette, or BMW 350 all meet your standards for a prime-time vehicle. For someone in the west or north who has to drive on dirt roads or through six inches of snow or has to carry hay bails or pull a trailer, none of those vehicles is ready for prime time. Would you agree with them if they argued that if the vehicle did not meet those standards then it is nothing more than a novelty or luxury and not meant for real time?

"All vehicles can be replace by EVs." Nope, not today and not anytime soon.

"All EVs are nothing more than novelties or luxuries and are not meant for real time." That is not the case as nearly 10% of the driving public will attest to.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Blackbird45

No, the EV market is in its infancy. You would have to be blind not to see the issues, but there is lots of money being invested to fix those kinks. This is not a mountain it is a minor hump, and the investments will bring EVs to its maturity. Tesla stock is not languishing and as the problems are confronted all EV stock will rise. The only question is how long it will take. If you're a day trader you might take a bath, but I believe if you're in for the long haul you will do well. Who in their right mind would have stock it out with Amazon. I would have dumped it in the beginning.

TRUE that E-vehicles are in their INFANCY. That needs to be kept in mind. Right now EVs are in a stage of development similar to the early MODEL T Fords. EVs have SO MANY advantages such as reliability, lower center of gravity, better acceleration, less chance of a roll-over, and even one that is NOT often reported------------ease of manufacturing. That manufacturing ease SHOULD eventually put DOWNWARD PRESSURE on the sticker price.
...........Any battery problems and range anxiety will probably be a thing of the past in about 6 years. In Europe new vehicle sales are around 20% for EVs. So, it is likely that the US will get to THAT percentage soon.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

TRUE that E-vehicles are in their INFANCY. That needs to be kept in mind. Right now EVs are in a stage of development similar to the early MODEL T Fords. EVs have SO MANY advantages such as reliability, lower center of gravity, better acceleration, less chance of a roll-over, and even one that is NOT often reported------------ease of manufacturing. That manufacturing ease SHOULD eventually put DOWNWARD PRESSURE on the sticker price.
...........Any battery problems and range anxiety will probably be a thing of the past in about 6 years. In Europe new vehicle sales are around 20% for EVs. So, it is likely that the US will get to THAT percentage soon.

No there was electric vehicles before model T ford. It not the vehicle, it the ability to power them and recharge them. That still in model T ford level.
European’s don’t have to drive as far or certain percentages don’t own cars or can afford them. You can’t compare Europe to United States.

When prices come down (if ever) and the can get at least 400 miles on charge and that charge don’t take hours. I’ll consider buying one, if I’m still alive by then?

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by DrMack

I’m so sorry to hear about your trip! I get it about green energy. Here’s the honest truth though. You are talking about Vermont and Fall!

Heaters in electric cars run off of electricity using resisters or heat pumps. They can drain an electric vehicle battery fairly quickly. We had 2 Teslas and in the winter they lasted a little over half as long as when we drove them in the summer months. The G 80 did the best, it could do about 3/4 what it was able to do in the summer in the best of conditions.

Next trip, I would consider being more pragmatic and just getting the more portable eco friendly gas powered car for the week. Zero worries that way.

I agree with that reply and it is definitely a honest response because of actual ownership up north in the winter. It is a known fact to both electrical engineers and technicians that battery output drops with decreasing temperature. This will LIKELY be overcome by improved battery technology in the future. Science NEVER stops improving and the TIME gaps between major breakthroughs keep DECREASING. Perhaps hydrogen cells will end up in E-Vehicles.
.........The MAIN core of an E-vehicle is NOT the battery - it is the ELECTRICAL motor, which unlike the Internal Combustion Engine moves directly in a circle. The ICE engine MUST INEFFICIENTLY convert reciprocating piston travel into circular motion for the wheels. That fact allows easier and less expensive manufacturing for the E-vehicles.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

I believe I understand you very well. Perhaps you don't recognize the bias in your thinking.

The motorcycle is not a luxury or a novelty, it is a mode of transportation. It was my only means of transportation for several years and my primary means for even more. In some environments it works well and in others it works poorly. Depending on what you need a car to to be able to do, it is a good replacement for a car.

An EV is a good replacement for an ICE depending on what you need the vehicle to be able to do.

if you want to say that anything that qualifies to be a replacement for a car must run on gasoline then no, the EV does not fit the bill though a motorcycle will. If you say that anything that qualifies to be a replacement for a car must provide heating, air conditioning, and protection from the rain then an EV will work fine but a motorcycle will not. it all depends on your needs (or in your words, standards).

Apparently, an EV does not meet that standards *you* require for a prime-time vehicle. However, for many people an EV is quite sufficient. Perhaps the Toyota Corolla, Toyota Prius, Chevrolet Corvette, or BMW 350 all meet your standards for a prime-time vehicle. For someone in the west or north who has to drive on dirt roads or through six inches of snow or has to carry hay bails or pull a trailer, none of those vehicles is ready for prime time. Would you agree with them if they argued that if the vehicle did not meet those standards then it is nothing more than a novelty or luxury and not meant for real time?

"All vehicles can be replace by EVs." Nope, not today and not anytime soon.

"All EVs are nothing more than novelties or luxuries and are not meant for real time." That is not the case as nearly 10% of the driving public will attest to.

Only questions I have with EVs are how they will hold up in the rust belt (corrosion due to salt on roads) and how far they will go in sub zero temperatures heating the vehicle, travel, and cold draw on batteries? Sure they good for southern states where rarely get down to freezing and you don’t venture over 300 miles day when affordable for masses.

[ThirdOfFive]

Interesting discussion so far!

On the one hand we have "these are the things present NOW that make EVs not a reasonable across-the-board alternative to ICEs" . On the other hand we have "things will improve for EVs WHEN thus-and-so happens".

In other words, reality vs. wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking is fine. But we have to live in the real world, and THAT reality is that EVs have a long way to go, if ever, before they become a reasonable alternative to the tried-and-true internal combustion engine.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive

Interesting discussion so far!

On the one hand we have "these are the things present NOW that make EVs not a reasonable across-the-board alternative to ICEs" . On the other hand we have "things will improve for EVs WHEN thus-and-so happens".

In other words, reality vs. wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking is fine. But we have to live in the real world, and THAT reality is that EVs have a long way to go, if ever, before they become a reasonable alternative to the tried-and-true internal combustion engine.

If I give up my trips to MD and NY and the farthest I go is down to Tampa then tell me why an EV is not a reasonable alternative to a tried-and-true internal combustion engine TODAY.

My answer is that not only is it a reasonable alternative it is a desirable alternative and possibly the next vehicle I purchase.

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

If I give up my trips to MD and NY and the farthest I go is down to Tampa then tell me why an EV is not a reasonable alternative to a tried-and-true internal combustion engine TODAY.

My answer is that not only is it a reasonable alternative it is a desirable alternative and possibly the next vehicle I purchase.

Indeed!

Which is why "across-the-board" was a consideration.

Of course EVs make sense for some. Here in Florida with year-round warm weather, relatively short trips compared to (say) Northwestern Minnesota, the Dakotas, Wyoming, etc., and the relatively ample supply of charging stations, they most certainly DO make sense for many. We're considering EV for our next golf cart, in fact.

But EVs have a long way to go before they're an across-the-board reasonable alternative for the majority of Americans.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive

Indeed!

Which is why "across-the-board" was a consideration.

Of course EVs make sense for some. Here in Florida with year-round warm weather, relatively short trips compared to (say) Northwestern Minnesota, the Dakotas, Wyoming, etc., and the relatively ample supply of charging stations, they most certainly DO make sense for many. We're considering EV for our next golf cart, in fact.

But EVs have a long way to go before they're an across-the-board reasonable alternative for the majority of Americans.

This I can agree with!

Improved range and/or improved refueling and lower prices are desperately needed.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Byte1

Apparently, you misunderstood my posts. Where was I saying that the EV is not for me? I never even said that the EV was a bad idea. I said it was an incomplete idea that was prematurely released with the intention of replacing the ICE. I also said that folks that support the EV are making excuses for it's limits. I also said that I own a battery powered golf cart and I add that I also own ONLY battery powered tools (except my saw). To be honest with you, I also find the battery powered tools that I own to be anemic compared to the same tools powered by fossil fuel. But, I did not wish to store gasoline in my garage. My preference.
Let me reiterate that when I read posts that state that the EV "will" be great eventually, or that the EV "is good IF" the weather is right, or they are charged over night in you garage (as if everyone has a garage). Or, the EV is fine if you don't have to travel a long way, or as long as you are not waiting in a line to charge it, etc. I hear a lot of excuses for them not being as good as ICE vehicles. So, I am sure you will agree that they are not yet ready for prime time, as I said a couple of times in response to those excuses. My motorcycle does not make claims as a replacement for a car. It is a novelty or luxury, nothing more. If an EV cannot meet th e standards or requirements of an ICE vehicle, it is nothing more than a novelty or luxury, not meant for real time.

As a side note......I prefer E-golf carts, E-bikes, and battery powered tools. As to the debate between E-vehicles and ICE vehicles - it is UNFAIR to even try to compare those at THIS VERY point in time. ICE vehicles have very little runway for improvement, whereas the E-vehicles are in chapter ONE of their development and have a LONG runway for further improvement. For those that want to, "hedge their bets" or EASE into the E-vehicle revolution - they might try the PLUG-IN type of hybrid, which is basically an E-vehicle with a small gas engine in reserve - thus a way today to AVOID range anxiety and still gain the E-vehicle advantages.
..........When people compare ICE versus E-vehicles there is more to that comparison than which vehicle goes from A to B. You need to factor in whether the A to B distance is too far for you without being very inconvenienced. Some people will realize that fossil fuels are running out and should be saved for medicine rather than just burnt into the atmosphere. And that brings up the CO2 in the upper atmosphere which is reflecting heat and warming the planet. Note : All the rain in Portland , Or. and Seattle did NOT just happen - if anyone paid ANY attention to some things that I have written, they know that the long term forecast is for 8 years of warmer air, which HOLDS more water (for rain).
............Another problem is that small gasoline engines like golf carts of smaller without catalytic converters have RECENTLY been discovered by medical scientists to put out small particles of pollutants that end up in human's lungs and even can migrate into their blood stream. So, imagine how much average lifetime those GAS engines are ROBBING from people !!!!!!

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

I believe I understand you very well. Perhaps you don't recognize the bias in your thinking.

The motorcycle is not a luxury or a novelty, it is a mode of transportation. It was my only means of transportation for several years and my primary means for even more. In some environments it works well and in others it works poorly. Depending on what you need a car to to be able to do, it is a good replacement for a car.

An EV is a good replacement for an ICE depending on what you need the vehicle to be able to do.

if you want to say that anything that qualifies to be a replacement for a car must run on gasoline then no, the EV does not fit the bill though a motorcycle will. If you say that anything that qualifies to be a replacement for a car must provide heating, air conditioning, and protection from the rain then an EV will work fine but a motorcycle will not. it all depends on your needs (or in your words, standards).

Apparently, an EV does not meet that standards *you* require for a prime-time vehicle. However, for many people an EV is quite sufficient. Perhaps the Toyota Corolla, Toyota Prius, Chevrolet Corvette, or BMW 350 all meet your standards for a prime-time vehicle. For someone in the west or north who has to drive on dirt roads or through six inches of snow or has to carry hay bails or pull a trailer, none of those vehicles is ready for prime time. Would you agree with them if they argued that if the vehicle did not meet those standards then it is nothing more than a novelty or luxury and not meant for real time?

"All vehicles can be replace by EVs." Nope, not today and not anytime soon.

"All EVs are nothing more than novelties or luxuries and are not meant for real time." That is not the case as nearly 10% of the driving public will attest to.

"Perhaps you don't recognize the bias in your thinking."== Bias? Okayyyyy If facts are considered "bias" I guess my comparing the EV to ICE is bias. Whatever.

"The motorcycle is not a luxury or a novelty, it is a mode of transportation" == So is a ski boat or jet skis, but since they are not a primary means of transportation, in most cases; or a preferred mode of transportation, then they are a luxury, just like a motorcycle. Yes, for some it is the only means of transportation they can afford, but to the rest it is a luxury and/or novelty. Yes, during the gas shortage when Carter was in, I used my motorcycle to get to work when getting gasoline was tough.

"An EV is a good replacement for an ICE depending on what you need the vehicle to be able to do."== Once again, making excuses for the EV's shortcomings. Key term "depending on what you need the vehicle to..do."

"All vehicles can be replace by EVs." Nope, not today and not anytime soon." == Glad you agree.

Once again, I will reiterate what I have said (and many others have said) that you find offensive. EVs are not suitable for long trips. EVs take too long to refuel. EVs still do not have adequate stations to recharge. EVs cannot be charged from home if millions must park their vehicles on the street. EVs are not suitable for harsh weather. Your turn, compare the EV to the ICE and tell me where ANYTHING the EV is superior and how it is a better replacement. Please don't regurgitate the mantra that EVs are working on those problems and are almost there. If they haven't fixed those problems, then the EV is not ready for "Prime Time" as I like to say. By the way, if you think that EVs are better than ICE vehicles, then you are "biased" by your own words.
I fully intend to purchase an EV to replace my present car that gets 35-40mpg WHEN/WHEN the EV can get the 900 miles per charge that they are promising in the future and when the price comes down to what I am willing to pay for an ICE vehicle. That way, I will NEVER have to stand in line at a charging station.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by Byte1

"Perhaps you don't recognize the bias in your thinking."== Bias? Okayyyyy If facts are considered "bias" I guess my comparing the EV to ICE is bias. Whatever.

The fact is that you have a definition of what you consider to be a viable means of transportation and your definition is biased away from EVs. As I pointed out in a paragraph you did not include, yours is not the only definition of viable. Others have definitions that rule out anything smaller than a full-size SUV. An EV is not suitable for your needs - fine. An EV is suitable for the needs of many.

Once again, I will reiterate what I have said (and many others have said) that you find offensive. EVs are not suitable for long trips. EVs take too long to refuel. EVs still do not have adequate stations to recharge. EVs cannot be charged from home if millions must park their vehicles on the street. EVs are not suitable for harsh weather. Your turn, compare the EV to the ICE and tell me where ANYTHING the EV is superior and how it is a better replacement. Please don't regurgitate the mantra that EVs are working on those problems and are almost there. If they haven't fixed those problems, then the EV is not ready for "Prime Time" as I like to say. By the way, if you think that EVs are better than ICE vehicles, then you are "biased" by your own words.
I fully intend to purchase an EV to replace my present car that gets 35-40mpg WHEN/WHEN the EV can get the 900 miles per charge that they are promising in the future and when the price comes down to what I am willing to pay for an ICE vehicle. That way, I will NEVER have to stand in line at a charging station.

I never said the EV was superior though I can think of a couple ways that it is. I said the same thing three times now: An EV is a viable means of transportation (ready for prime time) for many people AND I can think of many people who would argue that a car is NOT a viable means of transportation. It all depends on what you need or want to do.

So when an EV can achieve the range that works for YOU and the price comes down to what YOU are willing to pay then YOU will declare it ready for prime time?

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

As a side note......I prefer E-golf carts, E-bikes, and battery powered tools. As to the debate between E-vehicles and ICE vehicles - it is UNFAIR to even try to compare those at THIS VERY point in time. ICE vehicles have very little runway for improvement, whereas the E-vehicles are in chapter ONE of their development and have a LONG runway for further improvement. For those that want to, "hedge their bets" or EASE into the E-vehicle revolution - they might try the PLUG-IN type of hybrid, which is basically an E-vehicle with a small gas engine in reserve - thus a way today to AVOID range anxiety and still gain the E-vehicle advantages.
..........When people compare ICE versus E-vehicles there is more to that comparison than which vehicle goes from A to B. You need to factor in whether the A to B distance is too far for you without being very inconvenienced. Some people will realize that fossil fuels are running out and should be saved for medicine rather than just burnt into the atmosphere. And that brings up the CO2 in the upper atmosphere which is reflecting heat and warming the planet. Note : All the rain in Portland , Or. and Seattle did NOT just happen - if anyone paid ANY attention to some things that I have written, they know that the long term forecast is for 8 years of warmer air, which HOLDS more water (for rain).
............Another problem is that small gasoline engines like golf carts of smaller without catalytic converters have RECENTLY been discovered by medical scientists to put out small particles of pollutants that end up in human's lungs and even can migrate into their blood stream. So, imagine how much average lifetime those GAS engines are ROBBING from people !!!!!!

My parents grew up in a smog filled city, where you never saw the stars through the smog. One living into his mid 90's and the other is still alive, I think the hysteria over a shorter life due to gas engines is quite the hype. I am glad that you agree that EVs are not ready for the majority of our citizens. As you say, they have a long way to go to equal the benefits of an ICE. As for ICE vehicles being peaked out when it comes to innovation, I beg to differ with you. There are other forms of fuel that combustion engines can run on that may improve their exhaust. And as for oil being in short supply, I will make you a bet that even if we ever run out in our lifetime, there will be another substitute that will power the ICE veh that will work just as well, and possibly fit in the "Greenies" criteria of protecting the trees. By the way, I am surprised that someone that suggested reducing the human population to help global warming, would be concerned about the longevity of the population's lifespan.

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

The fact is that you have a definition of what you consider to be a viable means of transportation and your definition is biased away from EVs. As I pointed out in a paragraph you did not include, yours is not the only definition of viable. Others have definitions that rule out anything smaller than a full-size SUV. An EV is not suitable for your needs - fine. An EV is suitable for the needs of many.




I never said the EV was superior though I can think of a couple ways that it is. I said the same thing three times now: An EV is a viable means of transportation (ready for prime time) for many people AND I can think of many people who would argue that a car is NOT a viable means of transportation. It all depends on what you need or want to do.

So when an EV can achieve the range that works for YOU and the price comes down to what YOU are willing to pay then YOU will declare it ready for prime time?

Yes, and bicycles are "viable" means of transportation to many in other countries. You are still stipulating limitations on the EV. For those in the Villages, most can rely solely on golf carts for all their needs. However, if they need to exit the Villages, they will have to utilize a shuttle bus or taxi (both likely ICE powered). You have admitted that the EV is not ready for the higher abilities of the ICE vehicle. When I mention a limitation, you accuse me of being biased in my objective rationalization.
I mentioned the obvious in my statement that those posters on here that said that someday the EV will be equal to the ICE, are making excuses for the EV's limits today. It's kind of like selling a car with no wheels and saying that the designer has not yet invented them, but the engine is turning.
I say, make the vehicle viable as a "common" mode of transport before attempting to make it a primary replacement for the existing mode of transport. And anyone that says that we are not being forced into a substandard mode of transportation by the powers that be, is fooling themselves, not us. They need to listen or read the news.
I am not attempting to convince you or anyone else. I am merely disagreeing with the assumption that the EV is ready as an EQUAL replacement for the ICE. And obviously, those that are arguing, have proven my statement right when they admit that the EV still has a long way to go. Personally, I think the ICE also has a long way to go in improvements.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Byte1

"Perhaps you don't recognize the bias in your thinking."== Bias? Okayyyyy If facts are considered "bias" I guess my comparing the EV to ICE is bias. Whatever.

"The motorcycle is not a luxury or a novelty, it is a mode of transportation" == So is a ski boat or jet skis, but since they are not a primary means of transportation, in most cases; or a preferred mode of transportation, then they are a luxury, just like a motorcycle. Yes, for some it is the only means of transportation they can afford, but to the rest it is a luxury and/or novelty. Yes, during the gas shortage when Carter was in, I used my motorcycle to get to work when getting gasoline was tough.

"An EV is a good replacement for an ICE depending on what you need the vehicle to be able to do."== Once again, making excuses for the EV's shortcomings. Key term "depending on what you need the vehicle to..do."

"All vehicles can be replace by EVs." Nope, not today and not anytime soon." == Glad you agree.

Once again, I will reiterate what I have said (and many others have said) that you find offensive. EVs are not suitable for long trips. EVs take too long to refuel. EVs still do not have adequate stations to recharge. EVs cannot be charged from home if millions must park their vehicles on the street. EVs are not suitable for harsh weather. Your turn, compare the EV to the ICE and tell me where ANYTHING the EV is superior and how it is a better replacement. Please don't regurgitate the mantra that EVs are working on those problems and are almost there. If they haven't fixed those problems, then the EV is not ready for "Prime Time" as I like to say. By the way, if you think that EVs are better than ICE vehicles, then you are "biased" by your own words.
I fully intend to purchase an EV to replace my present car that gets 35-40mpg WHEN/WHEN the EV can get the 900 miles per charge that they are promising in the future and when the price comes down to what I am willing to pay for an ICE vehicle. That way, I will NEVER have to stand in line at a charging station.

"the question is tell me ANYTHING where the EV is superior to the ICE vehicle". Here goes.........the EV has greater acceleration than the ICE. It produces ZERO pollution at the vehicle compared to a lot for a ICE car, truck, or golf cart. note : the pollution produced at the electricity generating plant is easier to contain because it is STATIONARY. The EV has a lower center of gravity so accelerates, brakes, and corners better than a comparable (car, truck, or golf cart) vehicle. The EV is NOT dependent on fossil fuels (which should be saved for medicine). The EV is SAFER because of better braking and less tendency to roll-over. The EV is simpler to manufacture and repair due to MANY fewer parts. The EV is more reliable. With the EV, there are ZERO trips to the gas station and gas lines. No STINKY gas cans with the EV. The EV needs no transmission. The EV prevents global heating, while the ICE vehicle CAUSES it. Global health and longivity would increase with fewer ICE vehicles. EVs are quieter than ICE vehicles. (especially golf carts)
.......It is pretty OBVIOUS from this list of advantages WHY ICE vehicles represent the PAST while EVs represent the FUTURE.