[GoodLife]

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

Report: Other deputies waited outside during Parkland shooting - UPI.com




G'night.

So other Broward Deputies were cowards? What's your point? These are already established facts. More cowards does not prove your point. We know of actual heroes like the students and teachers who actually used their bodies to protect others.

[GoodLife]

I give you Lawrence Tribe, renowned Constitutional Law and gun expert. The stupid burns. Nobody can fire a semi automatic rifle at 10 rounds per second. He did get the R in rifle part correct.


Laurence Tribe
✔
@tribelaw

The R in NRA stands for RIFLE. The AR-15 is a semi-automatic RIFLE. Its bullets fly at over 2,000 mph. It easily fires over 10 rounds PER SECOND. Its only purpose is to rip human beings apart and leave them dead. Nobody needs it for defense or for sport. It should be BANNED.
7:27 AM - Feb 24, 2018

[Wiotte]

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa

The blogger you quote shows extreme ignorance of gun laws in America. He lists requirements for "obtaining a gun license in Israel" as being "some of the toughest in the world" and yet they are almost identical to the requirements for getting a concealed weapons license in Florida. The difference is that of course you need not have lived in Israel and there are no tiers of age restrictions.



In 2015, after a particularly bloody Jerusalem shooting attack that killed four, then-Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan drastically changed the gun laws in order to significantly raise the number of armed civilians on the streets. Instantly, graduates of Special Forces units and IDF officers with the rank of Lieutenant and above were permitted to purchase guns at their will, security guards were allowed to bring their guns home after work, and the minimum age for a license was reduced from 21 to 18.



Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat called for every resident to carry a gun, and was even photographed traveling the city carrying a Glock 23.



In addition, the overwhelming majority of terror attacks in Israel are stopped by armed civilians, not law enforcement. For example, the terrorists in the 2016 Sarona market attack were stopped by armed passersby. A pistol-carrying tour guide put an end to the 2017 ramming attack in Arnona that left four soldiers dead.



Gun control has been proven to be a dismal failure in Israel. The Israeli Arab communities are rife with illegal weapons, with some police estimates putting the number of unlicensed weapons in the Arab sector as high as 500,000. Think about that for a second: The most heavily guarded borders in the world and a highly professional Shin Bet are still not enough to prevent criminals from obtaining illegal firearms.



Again: Emulate the Israel model to stop school shootings.

Israel has been at war every year since 1949. Not a very good comparison, nor would
I want to live as they do, but, that’s their choice.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Carl in Tampa]

Originally Posted by Wiotte

Israel has been at war every year since 1949. Not a very good comparison, nor would
I want to live as they do, but, that’s their choice.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have suggested a model that has been proven to work for decades.

Please fully articulate your solution that would stop mass shootings in American schools.

I would be most interested in your solution.

[ColdNoMore]

Originally Posted by GoodLife

I give you Lawrence Tribe, renowned Constitutional Law and gun expert. The stupid burns. Nobody can fire a semi automatic rifle at 10 rounds per second. He did get the R in rifle part correct.


Laurence Tribe
✔
@tribelaw

The R in NRA stands for RIFLE. The AR-15 is a semi-automatic RIFLE. Its bullets fly at over 2,000 mph. It easily fires over 10 rounds PER SECOND. Its only purpose is to rip human beings apart and leave them dead. Nobody needs it for defense or for sport. It should be BANNED.
7:27 AM - Feb 24, 2018

It should be obvious to even a person with a modicum of intelligence, that Tribe was referencing an AR15 outfitted with legal bump stocks.

Regardless, he at least had the integrity to publicly apologize for his incorrect statement.

https://www.trendsmap.com/twitter/tw...35732624674818

I stand corrected. Just 5 rounds per second, each able to rip a human body to shreds. https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/967375494659395584

Then again, he wasn't that far off originally.

A bump fire stock made Vegas shooter Stephen Paddock's guns deadlier - and it's legal - CBS News

The modifications he appears to have made to his semi-automatic AR-15s, which by one estimate allowed him to fire as many as nine rounds per second, can be bought in many different forms on the internet.

I think the obvious is the attempt to parse, get hung up on semantics and try to deflect from the the underlying truth...that being the firing rate of a weapon that has only one primary purpose.

[Taltarzac725]

What if we all just join the NRA, vote new people in charge, change the name to the National Reading Association, and then give all of the lobbying money to librarians? Who's with me?

1:22 PM - 23 Feb 2018

I saw this on my Facebook feed this morning. From one of the many library lovers I follow.

All of this seems to come down to $$$$$. Has very little to do with self defense in a reasonable manner in an average home in the United States.

How are the NRA leaders selected anyway?

These look like much more reasonable tools for home defense--

Best Home Defense Shotguns | Range365

[Taltarzac725]

School Safety Ideas Nobody Wants to Talk About

Fatherlessness needs to be addressed. Kids need dads- most shooters don't have an involved dad. Can we connect boys without fathers to father-figure mentors? This is also a theme in the inner-city, less-publicized, yet more-frequent gun crimes in minority communities.

Adults need to be held accountable. The Parkland shooting last week is 'Exhibit A' on that. Dozens of adults at the school, local law enforcement agencies, and even the FBI knew about this kid and what he said he was going to do. Another adult, the SRO on duty, could have stopped it while it was happening but never went in. How many adults around this situation will be charged with crimes like negligence or manslaughter for their blatant failures? My guess is zero. How many will lose their jobs? My guess is zero. Nobody does anything because you risk nothing by doing nothing and get in trouble if you take a proactive approach and try to do address things before the blood is spilled. This is up and down our education and law enforcement systems.

Boys need safe environments to fight and let out their physical aggression. Young men involved in physically violent sports like football, wrestling, karate, etc. typically do not become mass murderers. I feel like our present culture is trying to take the fight out of our boys, but it's still hard-wired into them. Where no healthy outlets for this natural aggression exist, unhealthy ones will take their place. We need to stop shaming our boys and applying negative labels to boys that have a strong urge to fight. We need to guide and encourage them to find a healthy outlet, not tell them they're broken or bad.

The role of pharmaceutical drugs in mass shootings needs to be thoroughly investigated. It's too common of a theme to be ignored as a potential factor. Too many of our kids are getting drugged up instead of getting the care they really need. Right on the labels of these mood-altering drugs are side effects like "Hallucinations- loss of contact with reality." and "Suicidal thoughts." Yet we don't immediately ask about the prescriptions these kids are on, instead focusing on what kind of gun they used.

Training kids to huddle together as stationary targets on the ground, HAS TO STOP. It's stupid and getting our kids killed in greater numbers during these events. If they can't get in a secured room separated from the shooter, they need to run or fight, period. Get out the window or tackle the shooter etc are all way better things to teach. There are great programs to better train our kids on how to react to this threat.

Empower and encourage teachers and school administrators to have a plan, have the support of the district, and secure their classrooms the way they're comfortable with. Too many wonderful teachers with hearts of lions for protecting their kids are fearful bringing up their desires to their bosses whom will point to policy and liability concerns over common-sense solutions the teacher needs and wants. Teachers, if you don't get the support you need, do what you need to do anyways quietly. Damn the system. Keep our kids safe. There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer here, but all kinds of things could help like: ways to block/harden doors, weapons (gun or non-gun) to have a fighting chance if a shooter makes it through the door, and additional escape options like rope ladders for 2nd story windows teachers can deploy, etc. We can't have a cop everywhere and even if we do, there's no guarantee they won't be taking their sweet time outside like the Parkland SRO did while your class is in the crosshairs. Teachers are right there and the first line of defense and they need to think about it and take it seriously and not get in trouble if they do.

Finally, and most importantly, we need to improve the culture of our nation and our schools. We need to value human life highly. We need love. We need kindness. We need compassion. We need to look for the kids that are becoming isolated and need help and go help them. We need more than just anger at what's wrong, we need to celebrate the good stories and champions of kindness. Kids that care for one another don't kill each other. We need to touch the hearts of kids and train them up in morality and virtue- not just pack their heads full of information. This is exactly what we focused on when I worked for Rachel's Challenge, one of the top anti-violence programs in the country, and we saw tons of lives saved by changing the culture of schools from the inside out. (would-be-shooters with kill lists turning themselves in, gang members laying down their colors, suicides planned for that night canceled, etc.) Invite them to your school as a great way to start this cultural transformation.

This person seems to have put some thought into this and paints with small strokes playing great attention to the small details of real life.

[PennBF]

In NY (Hudson Valley) there was a very sizable Mental Health Hospital. Then came along the ACLU who said there was no right to "lock people up" who were mentally ill without due process. They took it to the courts and the courts agreed. SO ALL THE MENTALLY ILL IN THIS VERY LARGE MENTAL HOSPITAL WERE IMMEDIATELY TURNED LOOSE ON THE STREETS. You are seeing the results of this action today in the shootings. Somebody said you can't lock all of the mentally ill up..If you determine they are that ill you should be able to lock them up. It is crazy for some to complain about the "nuts" killing hundreds of good people including children and then taking the position these crazy people should not be confined from humanity !! We are now seeing the results of this thinking. How does the saying go, "how you sow so shall you reap". We are now reaping the results of our actions.

[Steve9930]

Wow, as usual there's lots of passion on this subject. Laws crafted driven by passion and emotion rarely are rational themselves. The AR-15 is a formidable weapon. However I can think of a few shot gun rounds that would have done more carnage. Definitely there are hunting rifles that are more deadly. Now I'll beat you to he punch: "But you can't fire as meany rounds as an AR-15". That's true and an AR-15 can't fire as many as you think either. Goes back to what I posted earlier. "Educate your self on the capabilities of the firearms you are trying to get people to give up else you loose your credibility in the discussion.

You can debate everything that happened that day, and to play what ifs this was done right, or that had been followed through is good to do once and learn from what failed and fix it. After that its time to move on.

Harden the Target, can't say that too many times. It works. Raise the age to buy a firearm to 21. Times have changed, we need to address the problem because its not going to go away. You need trained security(the number needed is dependent on the facility), access control to the building, for those teachers who want to and are deemed capable let them conceal carry, children (Yes at that age they are still children) that show mental problems need to be identified and helped (This kid was screaming I have a problem), I would not transfer a firearm between people without a background check (Yep that includes private sales), the background check system needs to be fixed(All the Data necessary is not being collected properly and available to all parties), and we need Red Flag Laws that allow at least investigating a possible problem.

What I see now in the public eye and hows its being debated is not going to correct anything. I agree with the Gentleman who lost a child, Columbine should have been the first and last school shooting. Also society needs to stop glorifying the AR-15. That rifle shows up every where, TV, Movies, etc. Young minds like to emulate what they see.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by PennBF

In NY (Hudson Valley) there was a very sizable Mental Health Hospital. Then came along the ACLU who said there was no right to "lock people up" who were mentally ill without due process. They took it to the courts and the courts agreed. SO ALL THE MENTALLY ILL IN THIS VERY LARGE MENTAL HOSPITAL WERE IMMEDIATELY TURNED LOOSE ON THE STREETS. You are seeing the results of this action today in the shootings. Somebody said you can't lock all of the mentally ill up..If you determine they are that ill you should be able to lock them up. It is crazy for some to complain about the "nuts" killing hundreds of good people including children and then taking the position these crazy people should not be confined from humanity !! We are now seeing the results of this thinking. How does the saying go, "how you sow so shall you reap". We are now reaping the results of our actions.

The problem with that is that most mentally ill are people are not violent and they are far more likely to be the victims of crime rather than those who commit them. There are a very large number of Americans with problems like depression.

And the biggest problem is that psychology and psychiatry are very young sciences and are more art than science. The mind is a lot more complicated than any other human organ and not all that well understood.

[Steve9930]

Times have sure changed.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Steve9930

Times have sure changed.

To who and what are you referring? The fact that insane asylums don't exist?

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

I just took a long time writing this post and I would like it to be read, Tal. Although you made a valid point. We should not make mentally ill people criminals in our minds.

Some psychiatrists just depend on drugs and never really treat the patient. Golfing Eagles has made various very good comments about psychiatry and its practitioners. The inner conflicts of psychiatry exposed | Tidsskrift for Den norske legeforening

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

Some psychiatrists just depend on drugs and never really treat the patient. Golfing Eagles has made various very good comments about psychiatry and its practitioners.

I really believe genetics has a lot to do with mental illness. No quick fix there. I also think counseling is useless unless it involves a traumatic event. I have completely changed my mind from what I was taught in school. I think people are BORN with a certain personality that can't be altered much by anything.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

I really believe genetics has a lot to do with mental illness. No quick fix there. I also think counseling is useless unless it involves a traumatic event. I have completely changed my mind from what I was taught in school. I think people are BORN with a certain personality that can't be altered much by anything.

In some cases that seems right and it seems to run in families. Certain mental health problems I mean. Others can be triggered by traumatic experiences however.

There was a woman whose boyfriend was on Findlaw. She had witnessed her mother being murdered when she was very young. She ended up driving her car onto oncoming traffic and could not get the mental health care she so needed due in part to how attractive she was. She died in that accident as well I believe did others. The boyfriend was some kind of soldier in KY/TN. The boyfriend had been trying to get her the help she urgently needed through Findlaw.