[Bonanza]

Originally Posted by KeepingItReal

“Absence Of Evidence Is Not Evidence Of Absence.”

Originally Posted by Bonanza

How about being specific and cite an example?

Originally Posted by KeepingItReal

And that would be an example of what ?

If it is that God exists, how about the Holy Bible, thousands of churches, millions and millions of believers....

No, no, no. You're coming in the back door. It was "I" who asked you to give an example of what you really meant about the absense of evidence, etc. So don't turn it around by not responding to the question and by asking me a question.

So you tell me what the example is, in plain English, keeping in mind that there are millions and millions of non-believers, too.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by tedquick

(snipped)...... before the BB there was nothing, not even empty space, or time, just nothing except God. God always has been and always will be.

How do you know that? Where's your proof? (Please don't tell me I have to read a book to find out.)

[onslowe]

Contempt prior to investigation is a cause of ignorance. The "proof" you demand of Ted is something that occurs after reading a series of explanations, narrative comments by physicists, and carefully laid out logical honest arguments. Why are you, who seemingly reads so much in the area of food and health, refusing to read a book that might…just might give you food for thought.

At least, you would have investigated and thought.

What a sad statement your post makes for those who worship skepticism and the false god of reason - very selective, dishonest reason. Have courage and read "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist."

[tedquick]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

How do you know that? Where's your proof? (Please don't tell me I have to read a book to find out.)

Great question but you know as well as I do that there is no “proof” of what existed before the Big Bang. There isn’t even any proof of a BB, it simply seems to be the most widely accepted “possible” explanation for the origin of the universe. Now let me throw a curve at you: the theory suggests that the expansion of an infinitely small and dense singularity is what “birthed” the universe as we know it today. What there is even less explanation for is how long that singularity might have existed before it expanded. And it is even more complicated than that because before the BB, the theory (additionally supported by Einstein’s theory of relativity) suggests that there was no time. With there being no time, and no thing outside of that infinitely small and dense singularity, in today’s language, there was nothing. BTW, I am not smart enough to understand Einstein’s theory of relativity, so I don’t want to imply that, but I do understand parts of what it and other theories might suggest and based on that information and using today’s language, as I understand our language, effectively there was nothing before the BB.

And then along comes quantum physics and some other possible explanations for what might have been “before” but none have been accepted as readily and as widely as the BB Theory. The bottom line is, and both you and I know it, this is all theory and NONE of it can be proven in a lab today. This and all other credible theories are run on mathematical models, all of which are above my pay grade, but I do accept the opinions of the experts.

I’m sure your comment about “. . . . to read a book” is because I suggested (actually challenged) BarryRX to read “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist”. I suggested that he, (and I think you should too) read the book because the length of the proof he requested would not be allowed on this blog.

Oh, and by the way, what’s wrong with reading a book? It is a great book! And it might surprise but even more importantly, it might cause you to take another (or at least different) look at not only Christianity, but also the Big Bang. Take care and keep smiling.

[onslowe]

Ted, You have a wonderful style and a thoughtful mind that's willing to investigate. I know I will learn how to deal better with others by reading your posts. Thank you.

[KeepingItReal]

Originally Posted by Bonanza

No, no, no. You're coming in the back door. It was "I" who asked you to give an example of what you really meant about the absense of evidence, etc. So don't turn it around by not responding to the question and by asking me a question.

So you tell me what the example is, in plain English, keeping in mind that there are millions and millions of non-believers, too.

There is no evidence that you apparently so desire to prove anything and would you even believe it if there were something. The absence of this evidence whatever non believers think it might be they deserve is certainly in no way evidence that God is not real and alive in the lives of those that believe and have faith.

God created our world as it is now for our sake. We are not worthy to question anything as he created us. We are not in any position to demand any answers about anything.

Romans 1:25
King James Version. Romans 1:25.
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


Many think they will have to give up a lot of things if they believe and this is not the case as you won't want those things anymore.

Faith far exceeds any physical evidence that might or might not be real. Once you have repented and are saved after hearing the gospel preached you will have the spirit of God within you and this will always be all the evidence you ever need that you'll have a better place to go at the end of life here.

John Chapter 20

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

[2BNTV]

Originally Posted by rubicon

What I have gathered from this thread is that whether it is a question of God or science both are based on faith as both gather their information from past history. Generally speaking the commonality among religious people is they are mostly warm and most welcoming whereas atheist are stern almost angry all the time. a primary example of what I speak is Bill Maher or the atheist organization from Wisconsin Freedom From Religion. This was noticed in the atheist community and now according to a recent WSJ article they have changed their approach to be more welcoming.

Christian believe in creation. Atheist believe in evolution some concur that a combination of intelligent design is possible. some believe that the reason scientist can't find the missing link to man is because aliens came with artificial insemmination procedures to speed up evolution. They point to those fiery chariot in the sky as space vehicles.

The problem with this exercise is that there are simply too many unknown unknowns (Donald Rumfseld)

So in my view one has to be content with their belief because it doesn't appear as of this date that anyone has an answer to this riddle

I opine I do not argue and I respect everyone's point of view

Totally agree. Whether one believes or not is a personal decision and will never change the mind, of another person.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still". Dale Carnegie

I personally believe in GOD's two greatest commandments. "Love your GOD with all your heart and soul and love one another as I have loved you"

[charlie49]

People who do not believe in any gods usually view the bible as a book of mythology, stories created by people trying to explain their version of history. It amazes me how many people believe in their god, but, do not believe in the Roman gods, Egyptian gods, Hindu gods, Aztec gods and the other hundreds of gods created by people through out history. In short the difference between believers and non-believers is that non-believers just dismiss one more god than the believers.

If people were exposed to religions when they reached an age of reason things would probably be different, children are intellectually defenseless and accept what adults tell them. If people learned that it is not uncommon to have virgin births in religions and they all tend to promise an after-life the current popular religions would not appear so special.

Non-believers are not trying to prove that gods do not exist, they just do not believe in them. One cannot prove that anything does not exist. I do not believe in talking squirrels, but, I cannot prove they do not exist.

[tedquick]

Originally Posted by onslowe

Ted, You have a wonderful style and a thoughtful mind that's willing to investigate. I know I will learn how to deal better with others by reading your posts. Thank you.

You are too kind. I am part of a small Men's Group and at our next meeting I'm going to suggest we consider a study based around "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist", the very book that you had recommended to someone in an earlier post. So I thank you, Onslowe. To you and to all who are reading this string, have a fabulous rest of the weekend.

[tedquick]

Charlie49 -- One cannot prove that anything does not exist. I do not believe in talking squirrels, but, I cannot prove they do not exist.[/QUOTE]

I love these little “thinker statements”. “One cannot prove that anything does not exist. I do not believe in talking squirrels, but, I cannot prove they do not exist.”

While it cannot be proven that “anything” does not exist, and on the surface I agree with that, the only “thing” that I am aware of that can be proven that it does not exist is “nothing”. Oh, and BTW, talking squirrels *do* exist. Please note: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-wa8rXc1Z4]A Talking Squirrel... - YouTube[/ame] Have a great day!! (Now where is that "smiley face"?)

[Challenger]

Originally Posted by charlie49

People who do not believe in any gods usually view the bible as a book of mythology, stories created by people trying to explain their version of history. It amazes me how many people believe in their god, but, do not believe in the Roman gods, Egyptian gods, Hindu gods, Aztec gods and the other hundreds of gods created by people through out history. In short the difference between believers and non-believers is that non-believers just dismiss one more god than the believers.

If people were exposed to religions when they reached an age of reason things would probably be different, children are intellectually defenseless and accept what adults tell them. If people learned that it is not uncommon to have virgin births in religions and they all tend to promise an after-life the current popular religions would not appear so special.

Non-believers are not trying to prove that gods do not exist, they just do not believe in them. One cannot prove that anything does not exist. I do not believe in talking squirrels, but, I cannot prove they do not exist.

It is extremely hard to have a reasonable discussion about religion when one party always reverts to a bible verse as proof of their position. It shortly becomes a circular argument from which there is no exit.

Quite often I find that after such discussions , the "believer" will admit that they have lost respect for those who admit that they believe differently.

For me the "Spirit of God" lives in those who love, are merciful, generous and believe in justice , whatever their spiritual beliefs.

[quirky3]

Originally Posted by charlie49

People who do not believe in any gods usually view the bible as a book of mythology, stories created by people trying to explain their version of history. It amazes me how many people believe in their god, but, do not believe in the Roman gods, Egyptian gods, Hindu gods, Aztec gods and the other hundreds of gods created by people through out history. In short the difference between believers and non-believers is that non-believers just dismiss one more god than the believers.

If people were exposed to religions when they reached an age of reason things would probably be different, children are intellectually defenseless and accept what adults tell them. If people learned that it is not uncommon to have virgin births in religions and they all tend to promise an after-life the current popular religions would not appear so special.

Non-believers are not trying to prove that gods do not exist, they just do not believe in them. One cannot prove that anything does not exist. I do not believe in talking squirrels, but, I cannot prove they do not exist.

Originally Posted by Challenger

It is extremely hard to have a reasonable discussion about religion when one party always reverts to a bible verse as proof of their position. It shortly becomes a circular argument from which there is no exit.

Quite often I find that after such discussions , the "believer" will admit that they have lost respect for those who admit that they believe differently.

For me the "Spirit of God" lives in those who love, are merciful, generous and believe in justice , whatever their spiritual beliefs.

I appreciate the comparison to belief in God(s) in history. Modern day believers are no different than people in history who believed theirs was the one true (fill in the blank). It makes their life meaningful, and that's generally a good thing.
To direct people to certain scriptures or books is also common in modern life - again, fill in the blank. We can peacefully co-exist by truly understanding and respecting each others belief and non-beliefs.

I understand and appreciate people who do not subscribe to a particular God, but who do believe in good and live their lives accordingly. As stated above, those who love, are merciful, generous and believe in justice, whatever their spiritual beliefs.

[2BNTV]

Originally Posted by tedquick

Charlie49 -- One cannot prove that anything does not exist. I do not believe in talking squirrels, but, I cannot prove they do not exist.

I love these little “thinker statements”. “One cannot prove that anything does not exist. I do not believe in talking squirrels, but, I cannot prove they do not exist.”

While it cannot be proven that “anything” does not exist, and on the surface I agree with that, the only “thing” that I am aware of that can be proven that it does not exist is “nothing”. Oh, and BTW, talking squirrels *do* exist. Please note: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-wa8rXc1Z4]A Talking Squirrel... - YouTube[/ame] Have a great day!! (Now where is that "smiley face"?)[/QUOTE]

I must digress but this analogy reminds me of a late friends joke.

Hijack!! Hijack!!! Hijack!!!

"Even a blind squirrel, can find it's n*ts!

"Forgive me father, for I know not, what I do", (paraphrased).

[TheVillageChicken]

Originally Posted by KeepingItReal

“Absence Of Evidence Is Not Evidence Of Absence.”

That is the old fallacy known as argumentum ad ignorantium. Using that old saw, I can defend the concept that a piece of toast is the supreme being.

[tedquick]

Originally Posted by 2BNTV

I love these little “thinker statements”. “One cannot prove that anything does not exist. I do not believe in talking squirrels, but, I cannot prove they do not exist.”

While it cannot be proven that “anything” does not exist, and on the surface I agree with that, the only “thing” that I am aware of that can be proven that it does not exist is “nothing”. Oh, and BTW, talking squirrels *do* exist. Please note: A Talking Squirrel... - YouTube Have a great day!! (Now where is that "smiley face"?)

I must digress but this analogy reminds me of a late friends joke.

Hijack!! Hijack!!! Hijack!!!

"Even a blind squirrel, can find it's n*ts!

"Forgive me father, for I know not, what I do", (paraphrased).[/QUOTE]

A life lived without humor would be a sad sad life to be living. "Quick" diversions from a topic are generally fun.