[Moderator]

Please stay on the topic of the local middle school current events issue.

Posts and comments about the function and role of the ACLU will be deleted as it strays too far into political territory.

Thanks for your cooperation.

[paulandjean]

Originally Posted by babbs455

This young lady is a friend of my son at Carver Middle school. I can tell you that there is so much bullying going on there as well as other schools as well..Don't know what it is going to take to get this bullying to stop..ITS insane. They need to do something to deter this activity and if this will help I say have at it.

Seems You have first hand knowledge.Being a retired teacher, The first thing I would do,because there is so much bullying going on there,was organize. Have parents call in to the board of education that you will threaten to pull your students from that school.They would lose so much state aid,they will bw jumping in circles to fix the problems. Thats the one good thing,I can say about charter schools. Now there is a alternative..

[Golfingnut]

I am proud that we can discuss a Gay-Straight Alliance club today. If this topic came up when most of us were in school, it would have been a dangerous conversation. We have a long way to go in showing respect to ALL of our citizens, but that said, we have in fact came a long way. I am also hopeful as our generation dies out, the next one will make this world a better place for those still on the way. I hear so often here about the Good Ole Days, well I agree we have pockets of problems today, but overall I feel we are a better society to address and change issues like we discuss here and not drive them into back rooms. No one should live their life embarrassed nor ashamed of who they are. I am speaking of Sexual Origination, Race, Gender or choice of faith.

[ilovetv]

When I read the first article linked (Daily Commercial), I couldn't help but think there was more to the story. Something is missing from what's being reported. I looked around and googled other articles on the topic. One sentence here, from this article, has a key point:

Lake County School Board member Bill Mathias says the primary goal of the school board is to educate middle school students so only curriculum based clubs should be allowed.
Mathias said in high school, all clubs are allowed.
But Equality Florida member Michael Farmer says the school board is banning clubs across the board in middle school to avoid allowing a Gay/Straight Alliance Club.
Mathias said that's not true.
The school board attorney is working on the proposal and the school board will vote again on Monday.

I think "curriculum-based" is at the heart of the matter. To stereotype the entire school board, administration and district parents as a bunch of redneck haters, homophobes, and bigots, just because the school administration cannot be all things to all people....is stereotyping and bigotry too.

One problem is that when a club forms at school, there has to be a faculty advisor(s) for the club. The school district also assumes liability for all its clubs, students, and faculty while they're there and involved in school activities.

So. Let's say that a good and willing faculty advisor for the gay-straight alliance club would be a teacher who is gay or lesbian, because they have walked in the shoes of these students. Now consider that for decades, as an example, the U.S. military had a policy of "Don't ask, don't tell", that worked reasonably well. A lot of us don't really care to know what people do in the privacy of their bedroom. Changing this policy in the military became congressional-level demonstrations, protests, lobbying, etc. for years.

Why should the public schools get involved in such an emotional, controversial, extra-curricular club, when really, I believe this problem is due to the schools having their hands tied in recent decades when it comes to seriously and effectively disciplining bullies that are so evil they'd slash a girl's face!!!!

When school behavior gets so far out of control that you have students openly, physically abused for being different, this tells me that either the principal and assistants are absolutely useless, and/or their hands are tied legally against their being able to strongly discipline and boot out these awful perpetrators who are also enabled by their boorish parents. I have taught under school principals that are absolutely useless and just play the P.R. game, and I've also seen some of the best principals you could ever find have their hands tied behind their back when it comes to disciplining abusive students.

Also....I'm pretty sure there are lots of teachers who are homosexual, and I'm certain that my kids have had gay teachers.......but why does anybody in a public school need to KNOW that???? Quite a few times, while my kids were in high school and after I'd met their teachers and got to know them better in parent-teacher conferences, I'd ask my kids, "Is Mr. or Ms. So and So gay? I sense that they are because of this or that." Routinely their answer was, "I dunno.....who cares?" And I was glad they didn't care about that because that person is there to be a teacher, not a sexual-identity role model, nor a counseling psychologist which, by the way requires masters' and PhD degrees, clinical hours, licensure and continuing education!!!!

I think the real problem this school board is trying to deal with is a) not having the legal authority nor standing to strongly, finally discipline and nip in the bud these bullies and get them out if they don't shape up; and b) the board and administrators know their limitations and that they cannot be all things to all people.

I think a club like this belongs in the private sector of the community, in for example a community center like Boys & Girls Club or church youth groups, etc. if it's in line with their beliefs and they are prone to address that problem.

Besides that, any parent of one of the abused students can form a club for the victims and friends to meet at their house or wherever. I think the schools already have enough problems of their own without getting into this.

[redwitch]

I've added my comments in bold, italics and red to ilovetv's comments. Hopefully, this will work.

Originally Posted by ilovetv

When I read the first article linked (Daily Commercial), I couldn't help but think there was more to the story. Something is missing from what's being reported. I looked around and googled other articles on the topic. One sentence here, from this article, has a key point:



I think "curriculum-based" is at the heart of the matter. To stereotype the entire school board, administration and district parents as a bunch of redneck haters, homophobes, and bigots, just because the school administration cannot be all things to all people....is stereotyping and bigotry too.

I don't think anyone has stereotyped an entire school board, administration or parents. We've railed against the possibility that the school board majority would even consider stopping this club from forming.

One problem is that when a club forms at school, there has to be a faculty advisor(s) for the club. The school district also assumes liability for all its clubs, students, and faculty while they're there and involved in school activities.

So. Let's say that a good and willing faculty advisor for the gay-straight alliance club would be a teacher who is gay or lesbian, because they have walked in the shoes of these students. Now consider that for decades, as an example, the U.S. military had a policy of "Don't ask, don't tell", that worked reasonably well. A lot of us don't really care to know what people do in the privacy of their bedroom. Changing this policy in the military became congressional-level demonstrations, protests, lobbying, etc. for years.

Don't ask, don't tell did not work. No matter how good a soldier was, if it become public knowledge that s/he was gay, they were out. Prior to don't ask, don't tell, homosexuality was flat-out banned.

Why should the public schools get involved in such an emotional, controversial, extra-curricular club, when really, I believe this problem is due to the schools having their hands tied in recent decades when it comes to seriously and effectively disciplining bullies that are so evil they'd slash a girl's face!!!!

The girl who got her face slashed occurred in 1963. The girls who slashed her face were charged and convicted of a crime but it would never have happened had the school not looked the other way at all of the previous incidents of bullying. Back then, bullying and hazing were accepted and, sadly, considered part of the process of growing up.

When school behavior gets so far out of control that you have students openly, physically abused for being different, this tells me that either the principal and assistants are absolutely useless, and/or their hands are tied legally against their being able to strongly discipline and boot out these awful perpetrators who are also enabled by their boorish parents. I have taught under school principals that are absolutely useless and just play the P.R. game, and I've also seen some of the best principals you could ever find have their hands tied behind their back when it comes to disciplining abusive students.

Also....I'm pretty sure there are lots of teachers who are homosexual, and I'm certain that my kids have had gay teachers.......but why does anybody in a public school need to KNOW that???? Quite a few times, while my kids were in high school and after I'd met their teachers and got to know them better in parent-teacher conferences, I'd ask my kids, "Is Mr. or Ms. So and So gay? I sense that they are because of this or that." Routinely their answer was, "I dunno.....who cares?" And I was glad they didn't care about that because that person is there to be a teacher, not a sexual-identity role model, nor a counseling psychologist which, by the way requires masters' and PhD degrees, clinical hours, licensure and continuing education!!!!

Don't think anyone necessarily needs to know but is there any reason why it has to be hidden? Should a gay teacher be prevented from having a lifetime partner or have to hide that partner from school functions when other teachers can bring their mates?

I think the real problem this school board is trying to deal with is a) not having the legal authority nor standing to strongly, finally discipline and nip in the bud these bullies and get them out if they don't shape up; and b) the board and administrators know their limitations and that they cannot be all things to all people.

The schools have a tremendous amount of authority to deal with bullying. Far more than they did in the past. However, it sounds like that this school board and school are not dealing with the bullies. By claiming that they will have to stop all extracurricular clubs because of this potential club, they will only increase the resentment and fear and, thus, exponentially increase the bullying.

I think a club like this belongs in the private sector of the community, in for example a community center like Boys & Girls Club or church youth groups, etc. if it's in line with their beliefs and they are prone to address that problem.

Besides that, any parent of one of the abused students can form a club for the victims and friends to meet at their house or wherever. I think the schools already have enough problems of their own without getting into this.

To force these kids to meet in the private sector announces to the other students that they are second-class students and can be treated accordingly. Maybe the schools would have a few less problems if they'd confront the underlying problem -- they have gay students that are being harassed and feel threatened. This the school's problem and should be addressed by the school and should have been addressed by the school long before the students felt a need to form such a club.

[Irishmen]

We had a well known bully in HS and in the gym he would pick slur on other kids perceived gay. Well what do you know, he turned out to be the biggest flame.

[Bogie Shooter]

Originally Posted by Irishmen

We had a well known bully in HS and in the gym he would pick slur on other kids perceived gay. Well what do you know, he turned out to be the biggest flame.

Is "biggest flame" not a slur?

[gomoho]

Oh my!

[xNYer]

These are a few of the currently "permissible" clubs in Lake County Schools:

First Priority -- is a youth organization that supports student-initiated, student-led Christian clubs on middle school and high school campuses.

Fellowship of Christian Athletes -- All adult volunteers working with FCA are required affirm their agreement with FCA's Sexual Purity Policy as part of the Ministry Leader Application form. This policy states that "Neither heterosexual sex outside of marriage nor any homosexual act constitute an alternate lifestyle acceptable to God."

Students Against Destructive Decisions

Multicultural Clubs

It appears to be more a matter of the school board difficulty in accepting the nature of the lesbian straight alliance, rather than there desire to have all clubs be academically based.

[Tellmeyourstory....]

Originally Posted by xNYer

These are a few of the currently "permissible" clubs in Lake County Schools:

First Priority -- is a youth organization that supports student-initiated, student-led Christian clubs on middle school and high school campuses.

Fellowship of Christian Athletes -- All adult volunteers working with FCA are required affirm their agreement with FCA's Sexual Purity Policy as part of the Ministry Leader Application form. This policy states that "Neither heterosexual sex outside of marriage nor any homosexual act constitute an alternate lifestyle acceptable to God."

Students Against Destructive Decisions

Multicultural Clubs

It appears to be more a matter of the school board difficulty in accepting the nature of the lesbian straight alliance, rather than there desire to have all clubs be academically based.

I do believe you are absolutely correct.

[CycleChic]

Bullying is going to happen regardless of whether they are members of club or not. Do you not think that the band students are excluded from bulllying because the "club" status protects them? How about members of the chess club? Who's to say the gay students aren't bullying others?

I will say it. My friend's daughter went to that school. In 8th grade she was persuaded by a group of lesbian students to date another girl. My friend's daughter wasn't poplular, wasn't involved in any clubs, she was just an average student. When her mother found out she told her mom she really didn't want to date the other girl, but people thought she was "cool" for doing it and it made her feel "popular" for once in her life. Her daughter has since graduated high school, and she'll be the first to tell you that was the worst experience in her whole life and she regrets it 100%. She says she never had feelings for that girl, but she was too "weak" to say no. So tell me, will this "alliance" be there to promote and persuade? How may students will join this alliance thinking it will prevent them from being bullied?

Regarding bullying....Give the power back to the schools to discipline the students. This has been the biggest issue I have seen while raising two children in the Lake County School System.

[graciegirl]

I have been reading this thread because I really had no opinion on it.

I have always believed and still do that our sexual orientation was not a choice but rather a genetic situation at birth.

Everyone's contribution has added a lot to my thinking about whether a gay-straight club in a middle school would be good or bad for a person of that age.

Yesterday I was with friends, one who taught this age group for a long time and she presented her views to me and I could see this issue much clearer.

We do change each other's views on here.

I hope mine now is logical, caring, good for children and the world.

You all get an A for presenting your views so sincerely and mostly without malice.

I love Seniors.

[rp001]

Originally Posted by xNYer

These are a few of the currently "permissible" clubs in Lake County Schools:

First Priority -- is a youth organization that supports student-initiated, student-led Christian clubs on middle school and high school campuses.

Fellowship of Christian Athletes -- All adult volunteers working with FCA are required affirm their agreement with FCA's Sexual Purity Policy as part of the Ministry Leader Application form. This policy states that "Neither heterosexual sex outside of marriage nor any homosexual act constitute an alternate lifestyle acceptable to God."

Students Against Destructive Decis.

Multicultural Clubs

It appears to be more a matter of the school board difficulty in accepting the nature of the lesbian straight alliance, rather than there desire to have all clubs be academically based.

Maybe this is the problem. I find any time any religion enters into these roles, the intolerance increases. It's the "My God is Better Than Your God" syndrome. There is way too much involvement in public schools by religions. I also believe that innocence recognizes things as they are, not as we say they are. Kids see through a lot of the things happening in society today. They know bullying and intolerance exist and try to overcome them as best they can, and they deserve our support, not condemnation. I also believe intolerance and bullying are not natural traits, they are TAUGHT, and probably by members of our generation.

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by rp001

Maybe this is the problem. I find any time any religion enters into these roles, the intolerance increases. It's the "My God is Better Than Your God" syndrome. There is way too much involvement in public schools by religions. I also believe that innocence recognizes things as they are, not as we say they are. Kids see through a lot of the things happening in society today. They know bullying and intolerance exist and try to overcome them as best they can, and they deserve our support, not condemnation. I also believe intolerance and bullying are not natural traits, they are TAUGHT, and probably by members of our generation.

I respectfully disagree with this. Bullying comes naturally to some, depending on their personality type. I believe it is our generation, and the ones before us, who tolerated this bullying as "a right of passage," and did not TEACH the bullying types that this type of behavior is wrong.

And the schools are complicit in this ignorance. (And I mean "ignorance" in the sense of ignoring a big problem.) It's long been time for a change from the top down.

[paulandjean]

Thank You for private schools.Seems all of these problems stem from public schools.