[MorTech]

The only real way to put out a lithium fire is with super-cold salt water...Could they not find any?

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by CoachKandSportsguy

which is why i won't buy a lithium ion battery golf cart. . . .
battery technology is not safe enough yet

From what I was able to gather, you are correct. The unfortunate thing is that Lithium-ion powered vehicles are media and environmentalist darlings, and as such are pretty well insulated against much of anything being said to tarnish that image.

The NTSB website has an interesting article (Safety Risks to Emergency Responders from Lithium-Ion Battery Fires in Electric Vehicles) on the dangers that lithium-ion battery fires can pose to first responders, which of course means that uneducated consumers experiencing such a fire are a whole lot more at-risk than assumedly-trained first responders. There is a very real risk of dangerous or even deadly electric shock to those dealing with the fire, as well as something that the article terms "thermal runaway", where the process of combustion of the battery produces situations and conditions that exacerbate the danger to the area.

The Miami Herald ran an article this morning dealing with this subject (Electric Vehicles and the Untold Secret: Are They Actually Worse For The Environment and More Dangerous Than Gas?). One of the dangers is that a burning lithium-ion battery produces hydrogen gas at a rapid rate, which is itself extremely flammable (remember the Hindenburg). Hydrogen gas is rated as a 4 on the NFPA 704's flammability scale, which is the highest rating possible, because it can combust in even small amounts of ordinary air.

But the dangers to people dealing with a lithium-ion battery is only part of the story. The Miami Herald article pointed several things that I was completely unaware of. First, the environmental impact of the mining for battery materials. Earth.org points this out: "the extraction methods for lithium and cobalt can be very energy intensive – leading to air and water pollution, land degradation, and potential for groundwater contamination". But that is not the only environmental danger. The Herald article also points out that the manufacture of lithium-ion batteries itself is a large contributor of pollution due to the use of fossil fuels (coal and natural gas). But the danger to the environment doesn't stop with the manufacture of the batteries. It takes 100 years for a lithium-ion battery to decompose after use, releasing toxic substances into the environment all the while.

Seems as if our Cinderella needs a little more cleaning up before the big ball.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive

From what I was able to gather, you are correct. The unfortunate thing is that Lithium-ion powered vehicles are media and environmentalist darlings, and as such are pretty well insulated against much of anything being said to tarnish that image.

The NTSB website has an interesting article (Safety Risks to Emergency Responders from Lithium-Ion Battery Fires in Electric Vehicles) on the dangers that lithium-ion battery fires can pose to first responders, which of course means that uneducated consumers experiencing such a fire are a whole lot more at-risk than assumedly-trained first responders. There is a very real risk of dangerous or even deadly electric shock to those dealing with the fire, as well as something that the article terms "thermal runaway", where the process of combustion of the battery produces situations and conditions that exacerbate the danger to the area.

The Miami Herald ran an article this morning dealing with this subject (Electric Vehicles and the Untold Secret: Are They Actually Worse For The Environment and More Dangerous Than Gas?). One of the dangers is that a burning lithium-ion battery produces hydrogen gas at a rapid rate, which is itself extremely flammable (remember the Hindenburg). Hydrogen gas is rated as a 4 on the NFPA 704's flammability scale, which is the highest rating possible, because it can combust in even small amounts of ordinary air. Hydrogen possesses the NFPA 704's highest rating of 4 on the flammability scale because it is flammable when mixed even in small amounts with ordinary air.

But the dangers to people dealing with a lithium-ion battery is only part of the story. The Miami Herald article pointed several things that I was completely unaware of. First, the environmental impact of the mining for battery materials. Earth.org points this out: "the extraction methods for lithium and cobalt can be very energy intensive – leading to air and water pollution, land degradation, and potential for groundwater contamination". But that is not the only environmental danger. The Herald article also points out that the manufacture of lithium-ion batteries itself is a large contributor of pollution due to the use of fossil fuels (coal and natural gas). But the danger to the environment doesn't stop with the manufacture of the batteries. It takes 100 years for a lithium-ion battery to decompose after use, releasing toxic substances into the environment all the while.

Seems as if our Cinderella needs a little more cleaning up before the big ball.

[oldtimes]

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive

From what I was able to gather, you are correct. The unfortunate thing is that Lithium-ion powered vehicles are media and environmentalist darlings, and as such are pretty well insulated against much of anything being said to tarnish that image.

The NTSB website has an interesting article (Safety Risks to Emergency Responders from Lithium-Ion Battery Fires in Electric Vehicles) on the dangers that lithium-ion battery fires can pose to first responders, which of course means that uneducated consumers experiencing such a fire are a whole lot more at-risk than assumedly-trained first responders. There is a very real risk of dangerous or even deadly electric shock to those dealing with the fire, as well as something that the article terms "thermal runaway", where the process of combustion of the battery produces situations and conditions that exacerbate the danger to the area.

The Miami Herald ran an article this morning dealing with this subject (Electric Vehicles and the Untold Secret: Are They Actually Worse For The Environment and More Dangerous Than Gas?). One of the dangers is that a burning lithium-ion battery produces hydrogen gas at a rapid rate, which is itself extremely flammable (remember the Hindenburg). Hydrogen gas is rated as a 4 on the NFPA 704's flammability scale, which is the highest rating possible, because it can combust in even small amounts of ordinary air.

But the dangers to people dealing with a lithium-ion battery is only part of the story. The Miami Herald article pointed several things that I was completely unaware of. First, the environmental impact of the mining for battery materials. Earth.org points this out: "the extraction methods for lithium and cobalt can be very energy intensive – leading to air and water pollution, land degradation, and potential for groundwater contamination". But that is not the only environmental danger. The Herald article also points out that the manufacture of lithium-ion batteries itself is a large contributor of pollution due to the use of fossil fuels (coal and natural gas). But the danger to the environment doesn't stop with the manufacture of the batteries. It takes 100 years for a lithium-ion battery to decompose after use, releasing toxic substances into the environment all the while.

Seems as if our Cinderella needs a little more cleaning up before the big ball.

According to Firehouse Magazine there is also a new concern for parking garage collapse since they reach extreme temperatures and burn for hours:

“Further, the temperatures of fires that involve internal combustion engines can reach 1,500 degrees F; temperatures of fires that involve EVs can reach 4,500 degrees F and hotter. The temperature of an EV fire is a major concern for parking garages.
When concrete is exposed to temperatures that are hotter than 212 degrees F, the moisture in concrete turns to steam. If the temperature rises more rapidly than the steam can escape through the concrete matrix, the rising pressures exceed the strength of the concrete, and it begins to spall. This spalling can be explosive in extreme cases and can cause major damage, including collapse.”

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by oldtimes

According to Firehouse Magazine there is also a new concern for parking garage collapse since they reach extreme temperatures and burn for hours:

...

Then it's a good thing EV fires are rare. (25 EV fires per 100,000 cars compared to 1,500 ICE fires per 100,000 cars. 52 EV fires per YEAR compared to 300 ICE fires PER DAY)

[oldtimes]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

Then it's a good thing EV fires are rare. (25 EV fires per 100,000 cars compared to 1,500 ICE fires per 100,000 cars. 52 EV fires per YEAR compared to 300 ICE fires PER DAY)

But just one EV fire can create catastrophic damage, as opposed to the ICE fires that can be put out in minutes.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by oldtimes

But just one EV fire can create catastrophic damage, as opposed to the ICE fires that can be put out in minutes.

You might want to look into the recent parking garage fire at the airport in the UK. Likely started in a diesel vehicle. Reports are the entire structure will need to be demolished and rebuilt. Seems somewhat catastrophic.

Some will be waiting for that catastrophic EV fire to say, "I told you so." Others will feel that the millions(?) of vehicles on the road that have never caused any damage, catastrophic or otherwise, are evidence that the technology is safe.

[oldtimes]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

You might want to look into the recent parking garage fire at the airport in the UK. Likely started in a diesel vehicle. Reports are the entire structure will need to be demolished and rebuilt. Seems somewhat catastrophic.

Some will be waiting for that catastrophic EV fire to say, "I told you so." Others will feel that the millions(?) of vehicles on the road that have never caused any damage, catastrophic or otherwise, are evidence that the technology is safe.

A house in my neighborhood had a lithium scooter fire in the garage. The whole house was lost before they could get the fire out. Less fire but more damage or more fires but less damage. Just a matter of picking your poison.

[MrChip72]

Originally Posted by CoachKandSportsguy

which is why i won't buy a lithium ion battery golf cart. . . .
battery technology is not safe enough yet

You don't own a smartphone or laptop?

[frayedends]

My wife’s client just had a drill battery catch fire while charging. He wasn’t home but luckily it didn’t burn the house down. I now take my batteries off the charger once they are done charging.

[Dusty_Star]

Originally Posted by oldtimes

A house in my neighborhood had a lithium scooter fire in the garage. The whole house was lost before they could get the fire out. Less fire but more damage or more fires but less damage. Just a matter of picking your poison.

There has also been a rash of electric bike fires in New York City apartments. Bike riders frequently bring their bikes inside to prevent theft. I've seen mention of 220 fires & six deaths in NYC apartments from e-bikes. CONSUMER ALERT: Attorney General James Provides Tips to Protect New Yorkers from E-Bike Battery Fires.

[Normal]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

A few million people (autos & carts combined) disagree and the statistics support them. But hey, buy what you like.

And several million more that stayed away from them and purchased gas powered instead

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by Normal

And several million more stayed away from them and purchased gas powered instead

focus, focus, ...

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

Likely started in a diesel vehicle.

diesel in and of itself can't spontaneously combust, and is not subject to ignition below the flashpoint temp of approximately 130 degrees F /

the fuel type of the car in this case does not exonerate the battery, though still waiting on the fire report, which mostly likely won't be published but will have to be retrieved.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by CoachKandSportsguy

diesel in and of itself can't spontaneously combust, and is not subject to ignition below the flashpoint temp of approximately 130 degrees F /

the fuel type of the car in this case does not exonerate the battery, though still waiting on the fire report, which mostly likely won't be published but will have to be retrieved.

Neither gasoline nor lithium batteries spontaneously combust either. Clearly, there was some form of ignition.

From one article:

“We don’t believe it was an electric vehicle,” Andrew Hopkinson, chief fire officer for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, said. “It’s believed to be diesel-powered, at this stage all subject to verification.”

The Daily Mail reported that the fire started under the hood of a Range Rover diesel, caused by an electric fault or fuel line leak.

I believe in another thread I posted information that the engine choices for a Range Rover hybrid do not include diesel. Therefore, being a diesel-fueled Range Rover exonerates lithium auto batteries. Now, if you are suggesting that lead acid batteries present an unacceptable risk of fire....