[Moderator]

Originally Posted by JimJohnson

Have fun all, I’m headed to dinner with my lovely wife of 50 years. I appreciate that this long thread only has a few less than friendly positive comments. We can do this and still respect each other’s differences.

Well, you don't see all the posts we had to delete/remove. This is an important topic and the discussion, by and large, has been thoughtful and civil which is how/why we have been able to let it run.

Please, all of you, let's continue this as a thoughtful, civil discussion and don't get sidetracked into other hotbed political topics.

Thank you.

Moderator

[Martian]

Originally Posted by JimJohnson

No question about that.

We have representatives that receive money from the NRA, right or wrong gun control will not happen.

We have representatives that receive money from the pharmaceutical industry, so forget about any drug our farmers can grow being approved.

But I regress, Medicare for all is human and the Christian thing to do. Now I’m ok with calling it something else and even allowing lazy good for nothing people not being covered, but please look at a way to cover all that deserve the attention.

So, you are okay with a lazy good for nothing person giving you the plague or measles which cause your wife give birth to a child with a birth defect?

My point is many of us in this c hungry have this thing of not wanting a single cent of our hard earned money going to someone that "doesn't deserve it" ... this can often lead to cutting off our nose to spite our face.

[Polar Bear]

Originally Posted by Love2Swim

You seem to infer that Medicaid is the cause of the debt, which of course, it is not. The debt has increased in the last two years due to the lack of corporate tax income...

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

So debt is not related to spending or expenses...

Originally Posted by Love2Swim

No, that is not what is being said...

Do you even read your own posts? That’s exactly what your post says.

[ColdNoMore]

Affordable health care/coverage should be a 'RIGHT' for EVERY American man, woman and child...period.

[Polar Bear]

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

Affordable health care/coverage should be a 'RIGHT' for EVERY American man, woman and child...

Personally, I think most of the disagreement in this thread is not necessarily disagreement with that statement.

The disagreement is about how to accomplish something resembling that goal.

[ColdNoMore]

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

Personally, I think most of the disagreement in this thread is not necessarily disagreement with that statement.

Personally, I will have to disagree.

Reading all of the posts in this thread, it is obvious that there are a number of people who DON'T believe ALL American citizens...should have access to affordable health care/treatment.

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

The disagreement is about how to accomplish something resembling that goal.

I have given the answer to that numerous times...but I'll do it once again.

ALL it takes is to prioritize American citizen's lives and health...over a lot of other things we spend our tax dollars on.

Pretty simple really.

[Polar Bear]

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

...I have given the answer to that numerous times...

In your not-so-humble opinion.

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

...Pretty simple really...

No. It’s not.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

Personally, I will have to disagree.

Reading all of the posts in this thread, it is obvious that there are a number of people who DON'T believe ALL American citizens...should have access to affordable health care/treatment.





I have given the answer to that numerous times...but I'll do it once again.

ALL it takes is to prioritize American citizen's lives and health...over a lot of other things we spend our tax dollars on.

Pretty simple really.

Simple, but not easy. Getting an entire nation to change its mindset is a herculean task. It is exactly why we have this problem in the first place. They can't get over the word "socialism" because of all the baggage it comes with. They think "socialized medicine" is equal to "damn red commie bastiges". Ignorance is not bliss. It's ugly, and dangerous. But it's pervasive in this country and why we as a nation can't have nice things.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

I agree with almost nothing in your post. But this sentence made me spit my Klondike Bar out!!

Ain't it just so.

All people have the right to own a Chevrolet. And see the U.S.A.

There are those who cannot do for themselves and they are our responsibility but don't let the talkers try to fix it for the rest of us.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by geofitz13

When comparing health care systems of various countries, we need to look at what seems, at first, to be unrelated spending. That is, defense spending. Look at the tax rates in the countries that have been cited: Canada, Netherlands, Sweeden. Virtually no military spending, so their near-confiscatory tax rates can support universal health care. If the US were to eliminate military spending, or drastically cut such spending, and then adopt the same near-confiscatory tax rates, we could afford universal health care. I'm not at all convinced that going that route would be advisable. I can't imagine any other country coming to our defense.

That’s because somebody else doing there dirty work, so the they don’t have to spend on military.

[Polar Bear]

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

I'll refrain from reciprocating on the attempted personal attack...

And yes...the solution really IS that simple...

Claiming an obvious opinion as fact is near the peak of being not-so-humble. There was no attempted personal attack...just a statement of fact.

It’s that simple.

[mtdjed]

The fact that someone says affordable health care should be a right, doesn't make that a right. It may a desire, but no government law has been enacted to grant that right. At best the government provides some health care that is covered by laws that provide some limited health care as defined by law and paid for by users. We can then supplement that limited health care by buying additional coverage that we can afford .

A statement of solutions that will not happen are not solutions. We used to call this brain storming and encouraged all participants to come up with answers even though they were not the right answer. The hope was to uncover some kernals that could be used to find a suitable solution. Here on TOTV we are not charged to solve this problem and obviously have not.

[Martian]

Originally Posted by mtdjed

The fact that someone says affordable health care should be a right, doesn't make that a right. It may a desire, but no government law has been enacted to grant that right. At best the government provides some health care that is covered by laws that provide some limited health care as defined by law and paid for by users. We can then supplement that limited health care by buying additional coverage that we can afford .

A statement of solutions that will not happen are not solutions. We used to call this brain storming and encouraged all participants to come up with answers even though they were not the right answer. The hope was to uncover some kernals that could be used to find a suitable solution. Here on TOTV we are not charged to solve this problem and obviously have not.

I am one that is calling for healthcare to b e a right, and understand that implies the government formalizes it as such. It is easy to dismiss as something that won't happen, but I expect women getting the vote was a common joke in mens clubs not very long ago.

[biker1]

If you really want to talk about the facts here they are:

- The largest percentage of the Federal budget goes to Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, and ACA subsides (26%).
- Almost 60% of the Federal budget goes to the above plus SS and safety net programs.
- The rest of the budget is pretty hard to touch. For example, Defense is 15%, benefits for federal retirees and veterans is 8%, servicing the debt is 7%, and all other domestic programs are 12%.

Health Care is certainly the top priority by dollars spent. The only other things that you can say that are also facts are that Health Care has not been socialized and, as with almost everything in life in both the US and the rest of the world, the more money you have (individually) the better the health care. That is unlikely to change (that is an opinion). I believe the best attempt at socializing healthcare was during Obama's first term when the democrats had a filibuster proof majority in the Senate, control of the House, and control of the White House and they still couldn't do a single payer plan. That is probably a fact but I haven't examined our entire political history to determine if those conditions existed before when there was also interest in radically changing the health care system.

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

Fer cripes sake, it becomes really frustrating when folks have lost (or never had) the ability...to actually distinguish between opinions and facts!

That there is a finite amount of money to work with = FACT!

Since there is a finite amount of money, one needs to prioritize how to spend it = FACT!

That this nation has chosen NOT to prioritize the health coverage/care for all of its fellow citizens, over spending a large portion of that finite amount of money on other things = FACT!

Whether one thinks this is the correct prioritization, or has different ideas of how to divvy up that finite amount of money = OPINION.

It IS that simple = FACT.

You're welcome.

[stan the man]

One thing that has bothered me for years is the fact that the AMA Has limited the amount of doctors that graduate every year. Everybody screamed competition competition will lower the cost of everything from airplane flights to buying widgets. I think it is a big Foss that only a certain few select people from either A certain ethnicity Or an affluent family get accepted to med school every year this is baloney. I'm quite sure in this country there are many qualified students who could become doctors and do a fabulous job. We have enough English majors and people who graduate and going to social services in this country. We could mass-produce doctors the same way we mass-produce lawyers. Some of these nurse practitioners are as qualified as many of the doctors practicing today. So let's start with controlling the health cost at its source. That's enough I'll only go on and on most people will not agree with me that's your prerogative.