[Bogie Shooter]

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

Border Residents Remain Skeptical About The Need For An Expanded Wall : NPR




One also has to wonder, how the Pentagon/Defense Department just happened to have $1BILLION laying around, with nothing to spend it on...so it can be redirected toward a wall?



Pentagon authorizes $1 bn for Trump'''s border wall

From the base school budgets, personnel benefits and training exercises halted...…………………….

[Trayderjoe]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

The benefits? In a nutshell, cheap labor and votes.

Originally Posted by jebartle

And jobs filled that no one else wants, sad but true!

Leaving votes/voting aside as that treads into prohibited waters and is in of itself a debatable topic, cheap labor and doing jobs no one else wants to do is proposed as a benefit to having uncontrolled immigrants over what controlled immigrants offer.

The presumption therefore is that no one, or not enough people, who enter as a controlled immigrant is willing to work cheaply or do jobs no one else wants to do. I am not sure that conclusion would be supportable, however, let us presume that it is. Changing the focus of controlled immigration to finding cheap manual labor should address that issue. It would seem to be an effective, easy change to make. So, what other benefits do uncontrolled immigration provide that controlled immigration does not?

[Fredster]

Originally Posted by jebartle

And jobs filled that no one else wants, sad but true!

My experience in the front office of an an upper midwest manufacturing plant was quite different.
Our shop was pretty much all Hispanic, and I venture many were illegal, since Ice came by several times picking up people.
I would see many non-Hispaic people come in looking for work, but I knew they didn’t have a chance in getting hired,
because the whole shop spoke Hispanic accept for the shop manager who was bi-lingual.
I firmly believe the shop was staffed that way to cut labor costs, and increase profitability.
I wonder if people realize illegal alien workers hold down wages of other workers, and even legal immigrant workers!
Plus if there are any OSHA violations they are not in a good position to make complaints!

[Fredster]

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

You need to read it again.

There are some people (not all) that don’t believe we need to control illegal entry into our country!
I believe we need to know (check out) who enters
our country, in a controlled process, so we can effectively assimilate them!

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe

Leaving votes/voting aside as that treads into prohibited waters and is in of itself a debatable topic, cheap labor and doing jobs no one else wants to do is proposed as a benefit to having uncontrolled immigrants over what controlled immigrants offer.

The presumption therefore is that no one, or not enough people, who enter as a controlled immigrant is willing to work cheaply or do jobs no one else wants to do. I am not sure that conclusion would be supportable, however, let us presume that it is. Changing the focus of controlled immigration to finding cheap manual labor should address that issue. It would seem to be an effective, easy change to make. So, what other benefits do uncontrolled immigration provide that controlled immigration does not?

Kinda hard to put voting aside, but... Why would a citizen want to work 40 hours per week for minimum wage when they can make more money on welfare? And, why would an employer want to pay minimum wage and comply with all of the labor laws, including payroll taxes, unemployment taxes, workers comp, sick leave, safety rules, and other mandated benefits, when they can hire someone and pay them in cash? There are a lot of workers who won't even work unless you pay them in cash. And, some people actually want to pass a $15 minimum wage which, if enforced, would put thousands of small businesses out of business. There are some small business owners who don't even make $15 per hour.

[ColdNoMore]

I'll just keep saying it, the problem with undocumented workers taking jobs away from documented workers/citizens...can be substantially reduced pretty easily.

Simply start throwing the book...at those people who hire them.

Put enough business owners and high-level exec's in jail, then sit back and see how darned fast a better effort is made...in who is employed.

Of course, there will be the inevitable whining and screeching from seeing prices significantly rise on a plethora of products and services...but that's fine with me too.

The nasty little truth is, that we as a country are also to blame because of the pressure we put on companies...to keep their prices low.

Then the 'law of unintended consequences'...starts to kick in.

When the prices for domestically produced products becomes too high, then corporations who are driven by shareholders who want their returns maximized and right now, will simply go wherever they need to reduce their overhead costs...with labor usually being at the top.

[ColdNoMore]

Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter

From the base school budgets, personnel benefits and training exercises halted...…………………….

Either there was an enormous amount of 'pork' in these budget items and an accounting forensic analysis needs to immediately be done on defense budgets....ORRR.

I'll take the ORRR.

[Shimpy]

Originally Posted by choppers62

I am Native American...how do you think we felt when your ancestors came to America...bringing diseases and death to our people?

And who did your people take this land from? Native Americans is usually thought of Indians, but they were not here first were they?

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

Either there was an enormous amount of 'pork' in these budget items and an accounting forensic analysis needs to immediately be done on defense budgets....ORRR.

I'll take the ORRR.

Pork? Most people who didn't work for the Federal Government have no idea how much waste is in every Federal agency budget.

[Trayderjoe]

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

I'll just keep saying it, the problem with undocumented workers taking jobs away from documented workers/citizens...can be substantially reduced pretty easily.

Simply start throwing the book...at those people who hire them.

Put enough business owners and high-level exec's in jail, then sit back and see how darned fast a better effort is made...in who is employed.

Of course, there will be the inevitable whining and screeching from seeing prices significantly rise on a plethora of products and services...but that's fine with me too.

The nasty little truth is, that we as a country are also to blame because of the pressure we put on companies...to keep their prices low.

Then the 'law of unintended consequences'...starts to kick in.

When the prices for domestically produced products becomes too high, then corporations who are driven by shareholders who want their returns maximized and right now, will simply go wherever they need to reduce their overhead costs...with labor usually being at the top.

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

Kinda hard to put voting aside, but... Why would a citizen want to work 40 hours per week for minimum wage when they can make more money on welfare? And, why would an employer want to pay minimum wage and comply with all of the labor laws, including payroll taxes, unemployment taxes, workers comp, sick leave, safety rules, and other mandated benefits, when they can hire someone and pay them in cash? There are a lot of workers who won't even work unless you pay them in cash. And, some people actually want to pass a $15 minimum wage which, if enforced, would put thousands of small businesses out of business. There are some small business owners who don't even make $15 per hour.

Yes, there are causes for and consequences (intended or not) of uncontrolled immigration. Where discussion surrounds low pay for physical labor, there is no proof offered that controlled immigration does not fill those roles. I have attempted to strip away the rhetoric so that we can look at, if there is, any potential benefits for uncontrolled versus controlled immigration at the most basic level. Should there be no fundamental benefit of uncontrolled over controlled immigration, then why the support for uncontrolled immigration? I have yet to see such an example or set of examples to support the position.

I would therefore submit that there is no benefit to uncontrolled immigration that would outweigh the need to change the current immigration laws, and restrict access to those who are following the path of controlled immigration.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

But there is benefit from BETTER controlled immigration. It's not an all or nothing option. The immigration system we have is broken. It's been broken, and as long as funds are misspent, unspent, underspent, or otherwise not spent on more efficient immigration processes, it will continue to be broken. No wall will fix immigration. It won't even put a dent into it. People climb over, tunnel under, and drive right through the border gates hidden away in trucks because we choose not to spend it on the available technology needed to keep up with the smuggling.

The perspective of the OP is flawed, because it's based on untrue data. This current batch of perspective regarding "uncontrolled" vs. "controlled" immigration is flawed, because it assumes those are the only two possible options.

[villagerjack]

Originally Posted by Jazuela

But there is benefit from BETTER controlled immigration. It's not an all or nothing option. The immigration system we have is broken. It's been broken, and as long as funds are misspent, unspent, underspent, or otherwise not spent on more efficient immigration processes, it will continue to be broken. No wall will fix immigration. It won't even put a dent into it. People climb over, tunnel under, and drive right through the border gates hidden away in trucks because we choose not to spend it on the available technology needed to keep up with the smuggling.

The perspective of the OP is flawed, because it's based on untrue data. This current batch of perspective regarding "uncontrolled" vs. "controlled" immigration is flawed, because it assumes those are the only two possible options.

The Border Patrol should be the experts consulted and they want the wall. So it will get built. That is a given and should be the starting point. They are also using technology across the entire border. We need to eliminate the Asylum “Catch and Release” Laws and do away with Birthright citizenship and base our immigration system on what type of people we need to keep this country great. Not on looking around the world for refugees from corrupt countries.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Jazuela

But there is benefit from BETTER controlled immigration. It's not an all or nothing option. The immigration system we have is broken. It's been broken, and as long as funds are misspent, unspent, underspent, or otherwise not spent on more efficient immigration processes, it will continue to be broken. No wall will fix immigration. It won't even put a dent into it. People climb over, tunnel under, and drive right through the border gates hidden away in trucks because we choose not to spend it on the available technology needed to keep up with the smuggling.

The perspective of the OP is flawed, because it's based on untrue data. This current batch of perspective regarding "uncontrolled" vs. "controlled" immigration is flawed, because it assumes those are the only two possible options.

Smart government is kind of difficult given the need of bureaucrats to pigeon- hole things with labels that can fit into boxes easily. And people to look for simple solutions that can appease frightened members of crowds with snake oil salesman type solutions. They make a good bumper sticker but that is about all.

And it is a lot harder to think on terms of people as individuals.

[Trayderjoe]

Originally Posted by billethkid

Would anybody have guessed over 23,000 PER WEEK!!!!

Sustained at that rate = 1.2 million per year.

See the following update for additional perspective of the issues/problems:

Exclusive: DHS data shows growing surge of migrants at the border - Axios

We talk about and get to hear a lot about things like global warming and how it is going to affect the future of Americans cities.
There needs to be more discussion about the immigration issue and how, uncontrolled, it will change the future of many American cities.

I am not sure enough American citizens are aware the potential these numbers have on almost every aspect of American way of life.

Hopefully this thread survives being shut down.....the subject needs discussion. It matters not the religion, politics or race.....the impact will affect all.

It certainly can be allowed/tolerated to continue uncontrolled.....as long as people know the results and effects.

Originally Posted by Jazuela

But there is benefit from BETTER controlled immigration. It's not an all or nothing option. The immigration system we have is broken. It's been broken, and as long as funds are misspent, unspent, underspent, or otherwise not spent on more efficient immigration processes, it will continue to be broken. No wall will fix immigration. It won't even put a dent into it. People climb over, tunnel under, and drive right through the border gates hidden away in trucks because we choose not to spend it on the available technology needed to keep up with the smuggling.

The perspective of the OP is flawed, because it's based on untrue data. This current batch of perspective regarding "uncontrolled" vs. "controlled" immigration is flawed, because it assumes those are the only two possible options.

Based upon the initial post, I don't see that the OP opposed immigration, but opened this tread to discuss the ramifications of the current system allowing uncontrolled immigration. I am curious as to what other type of immigration there is besides controlled and uncontrolled that was alluded to above?

There will always be a way to "game the system" and I don't think anyone will guarantee an absolute, but that should not preclude a wall as part of an integrated system to manage uncontrolled immigration. The wall does not have to be from sea to shining sea, but can help funnel uncontrolled immigrants to places where more effective intervention can occur. It can also act as a delaying action to slow down the number of people who make it across until the authorities can get to the scene. The integration of technology with the wall can make this happen.

A big FIRST step would be to fix the flawed immigration laws that BOTH sides have let the people of the United States down. Should one choose to ignore the data because of it's origin, perhaps a good microcosm of the downstream effects of uncontrolled immigration would be the lawsuit that the City San Diego was filing or discussing against Washington due to the negative impact on the city's resources that is happening as a result of the release of families into the community as required by current law.

[villagerjack]

The premise behind Selfishness as a Virtue is that unless you take care of yourself first it is impossible to help others. Unfortunately no country around the world has the resources necessary to take care of the billions of folks from other Countries who want to come here for economic or other reasons.