[Steve9930]

At the time of the mental evaluation he was sane, however after his divorce, loss of job, etc, etc, he went insane.

[TexaninVA]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

I will make it easer to understand.

Please read this and disregard my personal experience.



Perhaps, it would be a good idea to require a psychiatric evaluation to determine emotional and mental stability prior to the purchase of a weapon.

If we had a government and political leaders we could trust (which we don't) , most people would support this idea. However, since the level of dishonesty is increasingly apparent for all, it would be viewed as nothing more that a series of steps aimed (no pun intended) at effectively confiscating private firearms ownership. That's why people will continue to oppose it.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Steve9930

At the time of the mental evaluation he was sane, however after his divorce, loss of job, etc, etc, he went insane.

That probably applies to some who resort to violence like with school and work place shootings. Probably not very many though.

[kittygilchrist]

I worked in an institutional hospital in Florida which housed individuals identified through the court system as insane and therefore incompetent to proceed to trial. Most of them were paranoid schizophrenics. When the disorder is exacerbating, it is not a difficult diagnosis to make and at the same time not easy to fake.

Trust me when I say these people were not responsible for their crimes. Typically they had perpetrated what in their mind was either a first strike assault/murder to avoid a perceived coming attack, or their voices were telling them that they were on a special assignment from god to eradicate someone evil.

I wish professionals working in law enforcement and schools knew the age of onset and how to determine whether individuals with mental health symptoms in high school, college and the armed services who might have such a problem. These people have symptoms easily recognizable to someone who knows how to interview.

Very commonly shooters who go on a rampage have already come the attention of law enforcement or mental health providers who lack adequate training for needed screening.

[Carl in Tampa]

Originally Posted by kittygilchrist

I worked in an institutional hospital in Florida which housed individuals identified through the court system as insane and therefore incompetent to proceed to trial. Most of them were paranoid schizophrenics. When the disorder is exacerbating, it is not a difficult diagnosis to make and at the same time not easy to fake.

Trust me when I say these people were not responsible for their crimes. Typically they had perpetrated what in their mind was either a first strike assault/murder to avoid a perceived coming attack, or their voices were telling them that they were on a special assignment from god to eradicate someone evil.

I wish professionals working in law enforcement and schools knew the age of onset and how to determine whether individuals with mental health symptoms in high school, college and the armed services who might have such a problem. These people have symptoms easily recognizable to someone who knows how to interview.

Very commonly shooters who go on a rampage have already come the attention of law enforcement or mental health providers who lack adequate training for needed screening.

I'm going to try to make this brief, which is difficult for me.

Kitty is correct that it is often easy to identify potentially dangerous mentally ill people. When I was training in this area I was amazed to find how many of the mentally ill would readily admit that they heard voices in their head instructing them to do things when there was no other person present.

Years ago Liberal Activists destroyed the nation's mental health system of compulsory detention of potentially dangerous mentally ill people. Those people are now "the homeless" on our streets who refuse free refuge when it is offered.

------------

Now, back to the Original Post. No, you can't require a psychological exam prior to purchase of a firearm. A psychological exam is a medical procedure and HIPAA law forbids disclosure of the results.

The great obstacle we are presently encountering is the difficulty in establishing a database of people found to be "mentally defective" which disqualifies them from purchasing a firearm.

Frankly, the medical establishment refuses to cooperate.

.

[ilovetv]

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa

I'm going to try to make this brief, which is difficult for me.

Kitty is correct that it is often easy to identify potentially dangerous mentally ill people. When I was training in this area I was amazed to find how many of the mentally ill would readily admit that they heard voices in their head instructing them to do things when there was no other person present.

Years ago Liberal Activists destroyed the nation's mental health system of compulsory detention of potentially dangerous mentally ill people. Those people are now "the homeless" on our streets who refuse free refuge when it is offered.......
.

Each of the mass murderers in Virginia Tech, Aurora CO movie theatre, Tuscon shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Gifford et al, Navy ShipYard, Newtown Elementary School, and recent Santa Barbara campus killings, etc. had been seen showing signs of dangerous mental illness, but they were allowed to continue freely in the community.

When are mental health clinicians and courts going to wake up and get these people off the streets and out of schools?

Here is one glaring example:

"A court found that Virginia Tech killer Seung-Hui Cho was "mentally ill" and potentially dangerous. Then it let him go.

In December 2005 -- more than a year before Monday's mass shootings -- a district court in Montgomery County, Va., ruled that Cho presented "an imminent danger to self or others."

That was the necessary criterion for a detention order, so that Cho, who had been accused of stalking by two female schoolmates, could be evaluated by a state doctor and ordered to undergo outpatient care.

According to the "Temporary Detention Order" obtained by ABC News, psychologist Roy Crouse found Cho's "affect is flat and mood is depressed.

"He denies suicidal ideation. He does not acknowledge symptoms of a thought disorder," Dr. Crouse wrote. "His insight and judgment are normal."

That information came to light two days after Cho, a Virginia Tech senior, killed 32 people and then himself in a shooting rampage on the university's campus...."
Va. Tech Killer Ruled Mentally Ill by Court; Let Go After Hospital Visit - ABC News
-----------------
And here is another glaring example, the Navy Yard killer:

"A month before he went on the rampage, Alexis complained to police in Rhode Island that people were talking to him through the walls and ceilings of his hotel rooms and sending microwave vibrations into his body to deprive him of sleep, according to The Associated Press. Police notified the Navy of the incident, but it's unclear what was done with that report.

He was shot and killed by police responding to the attack Monday...."
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...ard-voices-but

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa

I'm going to try to make this brief, which is difficult for me.

Kitty is correct that it is often easy to identify potentially dangerous mentally ill people. When I was training in this area I was amazed to find how many of the mentally ill would readily admit that they heard voices in their head instructing them to do things when there was no other person present.

Years ago Liberal Activists destroyed the nation's mental health system of compulsory detention of potentially dangerous mentally ill people. Those people are now "the homeless" on our streets who refuse free refuge when it is offered.

------------

Now, back to the Original Post. No, you can't require a psychological exam prior to purchase of a firearm. A psychological exam is a medical procedure and HIPAA law forbids disclosure of the results.

The great obstacle we are presently encountering is the difficulty in establishing a database of people found to be "mentally defective" which disqualifies them from purchasing a firearm.

Frankly, the medical establishment refuses to cooperate.

.

That seems way too simplistic. Many of the homeless were/are veterans pushed through the system and not getting the care they need. National Coalition for the Homeless The National Coalition for the Homeless » National Coalition for the Homeless Many are unemployed who could not get a job for whatever reason. A very small number are paranoid schizophrenics. And most of the very large number of mentally ill people NEVER cause any violence to anyone. http://www.nami.org/

There were very serious problems in the mental health system and their still are. Most of these seem because people are obsessed with simple solutions to extremely complicated problems when they are no easy answers when dealing with common sense, bureaucracies, limited funds, and other matters.

You look at the current mess of the Veterans' Administration or prior to that the Catholic Church and sexually active priests (usually with underage boys) and you expect a "mentally defective" list of people to be actually work? It does not seem we are every learning from the lessons from the crooked timber of humanity. You are never going to get that perfect looking house, so to speak, from such lumber.

Look at these statistics from NAMI (probably a little biased, but....)

One in four adults−approximately 61.5 million
Americans−experiences mental illness in a given
year. One in 17−about 13.6 million−live with a serious
mental illness such as schizophrenia, major depression
or bipolar disorder.1

 Approximately 20 percent of youth ages 13 to 18
experience severe mental disorders in a given year. For
ages 8 to 15, the estimate is 13 percent.2

 Approximately 1.1 percent of American adults—
about 2.4 million people—live with schizophrenia.
3,4

 Approximately 2.6 percent of American adults−6.1
million people−live with bipolar disorder.
4,5

 Approximately 6.7 percent of American adults−about
14.8 million people−live with major depression.4,6

 Approximately 18.1 percent of American adults−about
42 million people−live with anxiety disorders, such as
panic disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD),
posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), generalized
anxiety disorder and phobias.4,7

 About 9.2 million adults have co-occurring mental
health and addiction disorders.
8

Less compassion and more bureaucracy does NOT seem to be the answer.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by kittygilchrist

I worked in an institutional hospital in Florida which housed individuals identified through the court system as insane and therefore incompetent to proceed to trial. Most of them were paranoid schizophrenics. When the disorder is exacerbating, it is not a difficult diagnosis to make and at the same time not easy to fake.

Trust me when I say these people were not responsible for their crimes. Typically they had perpetrated what in their mind was either a first strike assault/murder to avoid a perceived coming attack, or their voices were telling them that they were on a special assignment from god to eradicate someone evil.

I wish professionals working in law enforcement and schools knew the age of onset and how to determine whether individuals with mental health symptoms in high school, college and the armed services who might have such a problem. These people have symptoms easily recognizable to someone who knows how to interview.

Very commonly shooters who go on a rampage have already come the attention of law enforcement or mental health providers who lack adequate training for needed screening.

I am glad to hear that. I kind of worried that lawyers would be too quick to use mental illness to get people off who should not go free. I do have faith in juries to see through lawyers' tricks used on behalf of their clients. There also have been so many movies and books about the misuse of the legal system by the powerful with respect to using mental health labels that the typical jury member probably would not buy some slick argument by a lawyer all that quickly.

[Gat0r]

My next door neighbor in Tarpon Springs was a psychiatrist.She was nutter than a fruit cake.I wouldn't want her to examine anyone.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Gat0r

My next door neighbor in Tarpon Springs was a psychiatrist.She was nutter than a fruit cake.I wouldn't want her to examine anyone.

That's amusing. We had a criminal defense lawyer who owned the house next door. He rented his house out when we lived in Palm Harbor to what seemed like his clients. Some were OK. There was one Coast Guard helicopter pilot would use to buzz his house every once in a while trying to catch his wife cheating on him. You never know what crazy neighbors you might get. Another of his tenants dragged two pit bulls along the street with his car because he thought this would speed them up. http://www.sptimes.com/2003/04/23/No...ragged_b.shtml A boy in the street called 911 about the blood trail which lead back to the house next door. There were some pretty ****ed PETA members around our neighborhood for a while.

If we just think about the neighbors we all have had would you want these people in charge of who goes in or out of a nut house? Some of my neighbors over the years have had a lot of compassion and common sense --especially those we have had in the Villages-- others not so much.

[dbussone]

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa

I'm going to try to make this brief, which is difficult for me.

Kitty is correct that it is often easy to identify potentially dangerous mentally ill people. When I was training in this area I was amazed to find how many of the mentally ill would readily admit that they heard voices in their head instructing them to do things when there was no other person present.

Years ago Liberal Activists destroyed the nation's mental health system of compulsory detention of potentially dangerous mentally ill people. Those people are now "the homeless" on our streets who refuse free refuge when it is offered.

------------

Now, back to the Original Post. No, you can't require a psychological exam prior to purchase of a firearm. A psychological exam is a medical procedure and HIPAA law forbids disclosure of the results.

The great obstacle we are presently encountering is the difficulty in establishing a database of people found to be "mentally defective" which disqualifies them from purchasing a firearm.

Frankly, the medical establishment refuses to cooperate.

.

States have also refused to cooperate.

[Carl in Tampa]

Originally Posted by Gat0r

My next door neighbor in Tarpon Springs was a psychiatrist.She was nutter than a fruit cake.I wouldn't want her to examine anyone.

In my career I had to interview many psychiatrists regarding their patients who had articulated threats to harm the President.

After many such interviews I reached the conclusion that the psychiatrists spend so much time with the mentally ill that they adopt many of their patients' characteristics and often lose their ability to discern what is abnormal.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa

In my career I had to interview many psychiatrists regarding their patients who had articulated threats to harm the President.

After many such interviews I reached the conclusion that the psychiatrists spend so much time with the mentally ill that they adopt many of their patients' characteristics and often lose their ability to discern what is abnormal.

There are also psychiatrists that are no more than pill pushers. They see a symptom from the book they use to treat patients and just prescribe accordingly to their cook book or Bible-- the DSM. http://www.psych.org/practice/dsm They seem to forget that psychiatry is more art than science especially given how many fads it has had in its very young history as a discipline.

As some may know, I had a nervous breakdown from long term stress (and perhaps other factors which I hope someone is investigating from the documents I sent the ObamaCare people a few months ago) in late March of 2000. I was in the care of a few psychiatrists who never even talked to me while I was in the Clearwater hospital but did charge my parents several thousands of dollars for this treatment. I remember pretty much everything that happened to me. I went into a Pinellas Park facility for a week or so without seeing a judge. One very kind orderly told me to shut up and just roll with the treatment, be friendly, and take your pills. Which I did. I then was with a Directions for Mental Health psychiatrist for about 18 months who charged me $10 a visit but taking or not taking her prescribed pills had no effect on me. I experimented with taking them and not taking them. I did report what I had thought happened to me to cause a nervous breakdown to the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office by going down there to their headquarters and thumbing a letter from the Palm Harbor US Representative in front of the nose of the desk clerk so I could talk to a detective--Crandell. I then handed him--Crandell-- a few hundred documents about my survivors/victims rights campaign of 1990-2000 or so. This was on September 18, 2002. The psychiatrists I spoke to in Pinellas County were very poor examples of their profession. The one that I had whenever I told her that something else was going on with me-- in twenty or so e-mails-- would just up my medication or tell me its not her job to look into what I was claiming had happened. Detective Crandell just said that if what I asserted had happened to me-- no crime was involved. (I am not saying more because again I hope that the ObamaCare people are looking into this and connecting various dots from the documents I gave them a few months ago).

I had no mental health problems before 2000 and except for occasional depression-- mainly because no one believed my story-- not much since 2000. I did try to get NAMI-Pinellas County involved but the psychiatrist I had over those 18 months was the same one treating the daughter of the Chapter Head of NAMI-Pinellas County. http://www.nami.org/MSTemplate.cfm?MicrositeID=220 And, she swore the woman treating her daughter was a great psychiatrist.

[wendyquat]

Originally Posted by ilovetv

It seems like a good idea. But be careful what you wish for.

If the government were to become the single-payer of all healthcare services, and has every psychiatrist and psychologist session notes and prescriptions in their electronic medical records database, it can be misused to deem political opponents and dissidents as "mentally unfit" to do many things, like getting and keeping a job and owning a firearm.

Or, with the IRS having the stronghold on everyone, an opponent could be determined "mentally unfit" because they owe back-taxes or any number of things.

I think we should maintain a certain level of distrust for government because the majority in power changes, and those in power can change to those you do not like or trust at all.

Thanks for seldom seen voice of reason!

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by wendyquat

Thanks for seldom seen voice of reason!

We do need checks and balances. In my own situation in the Summer of 2000, so that I would not be so easy a mark so to speak I started volunteering at Palm Harbor Library and also pushing my victims/survivors' access to information agenda to a small extent but mainly just trying to be helpful and friendly at the library as I try to be on TOTV.

I thought this would also open up doors into libraries in the Tampa Bay area as I have a MA in Librarianship and Information Management from the University of Denver (Class of May, 1984). All went well and I managed to get the Florida Victim Services Directory linked to their website for a time. Things went south though after I met the Palm Harbor Library Director Gene Coppola who admitted that he could see no mental health problems ( I did feel I needed to tell him about the mental health problem I had earlier in 2000 Should Mental Health Evaluation be required for Gun Purchases? but in a very non disturbing way). He thought my victims rights' campaign was a worthwhile one but then told me he wanted 50% of any fundings for the Palm Harbor Library he might help get by adding his input. I said no AND the doors to libraries in the Tampa Bay area started shutting for my finding work based on the contacts I made while volunteering. I had volunteered hoping that would land me paying work. I volunteered in Palm Harbor's two public libraries (I was also at East Lake Community Library in Palm Harbor from about September 2000 or so through maybe May 2003) for 10 to 14 hours a week for almost three years.

One person can really sway things in the wrong direction. All Gene Coppola needed to do was say I was a good worker (which I was) and keep the library website linked to the Florida Victim Services Directory. Instead, they started playing politics with the link and it soon vanished from their website.

Some one in a small pond can cause trouble just like someone in an even larger one. Coppola and I kind of caused problems for one another. I even received a Cease and Desist order from the Palm Harbor Library General Counsel on March 2, 2004 because of my complaining about the truth of the statement that there was a link to the Florida Victim Services Directory in the Palm Harbor Library website. I asked a number of Palm Harbor Library reference librarians after I quit volunteering because of the disappearance of this link. They had agreed with me that there was no link. It was important to me because I had been e-mailing many people fighting for a link to a similar victims' assistance directories in other states while also mentioning that I was listed in various Marquis Who's Who volumes. They listed me as having volunteered at two public libraries in Palm Harbor.

I do not expect personalities in more powerful positions are all that different from Gene Coppola's and mine. I do think people will use anything to play politics with especially those connected with the NRA who seem more concerned with putting up a brave fight for the 2nd Amendment rather than stopping the gun violence in the US which could be, at least curbed, with some common sense limitations on guns designed for the military being sold legally in the states. There would still be illegal gun sales of course but it would get some guns out of future marketplaces.

FYI I have tried to keep very friendly relationships with my minor dealings with Lake and Sumter County librarians whom I have found open and honest to my input. I do not volunteer in libraries anymore though. I had really wanted to move to the Villages in 2005 from Palm Harbor because Gene Coppola was also the Chairman of the Board of the Palm Harbor Chamber of Commerce and I had made some enemies when pointing out that there was no link to the Florida Victim Services Directory. I have not looked but I sincerely doubt if there is a link now as that would make them admit that they had needed one in the first or second place. http://www.palmharborlibrary.org/ The second place as there was one before I did not take Coppola up on the offer of 50% he thought I could not refuse. Not that it matters, but Gene Coppola is no relation to the San Francisco Francis Ford Coppola clan. He is from NYC.