[jbdlfan]

Some of your arguments in this thread can be applied to Social security and Medicare. I get it, you paid in. But the people YOU elected wasted it or misappropriated it. Most have taken out WAY more than they ever paid in. Why should I now have to pay for that, let alone my children and their children? You should have planned better, watched our Nation's resources and been better stewards.

I'm sorry, but that is just as silly as some of the arguments on not funding education. Who do you think will be paying for YOUR bankrupt Social Security system? Yes, those same kids you don't want to spend to get educated so they can get jobs that haven't even been invented yet. It is an INVESTMENT. Very few things we pay for with our tax dollars can generate a return. Education is one of them.

[chachacha]

there are already plenty of programs to pay for education...this is simply a political stunt.

[Rags123]

Originally Posted by jbdlfan

Some of your arguments in this thread can be applied to Social security and Medicare. I get it, you paid in. But the people YOU elected wasted it or misappropriated it. Most have taken out WAY more than they ever paid in. Why should I now have to pay for that, let alone my children and their children? You should have planned better, watched our Nation's resources and been better stewards.

I'm sorry, but that is just as silly as some of the arguments on not funding education. Who do you think will be paying for YOUR bankrupt Social Security system? Yes, those same kids you don't want to spend to educated so they can get jobs that haven't even been invented yet. It is an INVESTMENT. Very few things we pay for with our tax dollars can generate a return. Education is one of them.

I have offered no "silly arguments" as you say. I simply say that this country can not afford to do this. There are other more compelling and P.......l reasons, along with the long argument concerning your comparing social security to this situation, but this country does not have the money.

Hate to be crass, but others have said it....this proposal is simply another of the stunts we should be used to by now.

[outlaw]

One reason tuition has outpaced inflation is the federal and state programs that have subsidized financing for tuition. It is simply supply and demand. The "cheaper" the cost to attend college, the more people will attend. We now have $1 trillion in student debt, many of those students have virtually unmarketable degrees (but hey, they are college graduates), and the professors, administrators, and staff, are laughing all the way to the bank.

[Rags123]

I am sorry....I did not think of this while responding above and really am not sure of my facts on this....but

Does not a Pell Grant cover most of tuition presently ?

I understand that this is for low income or based on need, but is that not the audience we search for ?

If I am wrong, please correct me......but wonder if people who need it are knocking down the doors for Pell Grants ?

[gomoho]

Originally Posted by Rags123

I am sorry....I did not think of this while responding above and really am not sure of my facts on this....but

Does not a Pell Grant cover most of tuition presently ?

I understand that this is for low income or based on need, but is that not the audience we search for ?

If I am wrong, please correct me......but wonder if people who need it are knocking down the doors for Pell Grants ?

Because they are not motivated or smart enough to do so - so lets give it to them for free!

[jbdlfan]

Originally Posted by Rags123

I have offered no "silly arguments" as you say. I simply say that this country can not afford to do this. There are other more compelling and P.......l reasons, along with the long argument concerning your comparing social security to this situation, but this country does not have the money.

Hate to be crass, but others have said it....this proposal is simply another of the stunts we should be used to by now.

We can't afford Social Security either but I don't see anyone clamoring to end it. That would save billions if not trillions. We are paying people to NOT work (SS) but you are opposed to paying for an education for people to work.
Look, I agree we are tremendously in debt but no one will face the real issues.
I've never met a REAL fiscal conservative(which I am) on Social Security. The biggest difference is in each of our opinions of the expenditure. I see it as a long term investment in an educated population. You see it as a drain on on an already over-burdened system.
So are you saying...If....I repeat If we could afford it you would still oppose it?

[jbdlfan]

Originally Posted by gomoho

Because they are not motivated or smart enough to do so - so lets give it to them for free!

You have to be at the very LOWEST end of the financial spectrum to get a Pell grant. As a teacher in Florida and spouse working in customer service, none of our kids qualified.

[tomwed]

Originally Posted by jbdlfan

Some of your arguments in this thread can be applied to Social security and Medicare. I get it, you paid in. But the people YOU elected wasted it or misappropriated it. Most have taken out WAY more than they ever paid in. Why should I now have to pay for that, let alone my children and their children? You should have planned better, watched our Nation's resources and been better stewards.

I'm sorry, but that is just as silly as some of the arguments on not funding education. Who do you think will be paying for YOUR bankrupt Social Security system? Yes, those same kids you don't want to spend to get educated so they can get jobs that haven't even been invented yet. It is an INVESTMENT. Very few things we pay for with our tax dollars can generate a return. Education is one of them.

If you are my age, 62, ask yourself if life was life easier for you then if you were 18 today?
If we had it better then we need to thank those before us.
If you are 18 and being successful is not as easy then they need to blame us.

I would be very happy to find out that my generation looked out for their kids.

Show me that proof and I will buy you a beer and we can celebrate that we looked out for the next generation too.

[tomwed]

Originally Posted by gomoho

Because they are not motivated or smart enough to do so - so lets give it to them for free!

Tell me your success story.

[Rags123]

Originally Posted by jbdlfan

We can't afford Social Security either but I don't see anyone clamoring to end it. That would save billions if not trillions. We are paying people to NOT work (SS) but you are opposed to paying for an education for people to work.
Look, I agree we are tremendously in debt but no one will face the real issues.
I've never met a REAL fiscal conservative(which I am) on Social Security. The biggest difference is in each of our opinions of the expenditure. I see it as a long term investment in an educated population. You see it as a drain on on an already over-burdened system.
So are you saying...If....I repeat If we could afford it you would still oppose it?

Your post leaves me a bit confused.

Other than being something paid out of the US Treasury, I see no similarities between Social Security and this proposal (which seems to surface each January).

I also have no idea what a "REAL fiscal conservative(which I am) on Social Security. " The Social Security problem has existed for many years...MANY years and is nothing new. It needs to be addressed, on that I agree totally, but seems it always gets buried in the p.....al aspect (recall the proposal a number of years ago to privatize it..which I do not agree with...but it was laughed at and we were told loud and clear...there is no problem...see this link as one...Democrats Deny Social Security’s Red Ink)

But we are digressing....same point could be made on any spending we do as opposed to offering new programs that just are not necessary or affordable at this time. I simply responded more on Social Security because for some reason that seems to irk you.

You ended with this question..."So are you saying...If....I repeat If we could afford it you would still oppose it?" That is very confusing at the least. What do you mean by that question.....trying to stay a bit lucid, I will simply say if we could afford it then we might spend time discussing the idea and doing it correctly, but we cannot, thus it becomes a dead issue.

I actually suggest that we have a great discussion on social security as that seems to get you riled. I actually spoke to that a bit in post #33 on this thread because we do need reform in social security. I also in this same thread spoke briefly to the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform in post #590. If you recall, that was the commission whose results we simply ignored and still do.

And finally a quote I used seems to apply here...

"Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive."
William F. Buckley, Jr.

Bottom line, we agree that we need work on Social Security and I am hoping that very soon we can get all sides to discuss the future of all entitlement programs so that maybe some day some of that idealism can be used. We need tax reform as well...all of this should come before consideration of a bill like this free tuition. Again, I still think we better address leaving our kids and grandkids with a nation that is not broke...that, to me seems the most important and we are working in the other direction.

Also in this thread (forgive me for not pasting the entire thing and obviously obviously you have not read all of it OR you just flat out do not agree, but the economy is not coming back as we are being told and THAT needs work well before any of these annual hopes.

This link will get you to the study which shows our supposed manufacturing rebound is not as robust as we thought.

New study paints bleak picture of manufacturing rebound

Would love to hear exactly what a fiscal conserative is on Social Security...I understand the term but hearing it applied to ONLY Social Security makes me ask.

And I hope I responded to your question...it was worded kind of odd and I took my best shot. My problem was that you made an assumption for me that was not even implied, ie. opposing this bill if we could afford it. Not sure how you arrived at that on my behalf

BIG PS....notice the heading of this thread. It is about one state, and would it not be novel for states that can afford it, and need it to propose it on a state level ? Imagine....why is everything federal ?

[Rags123]

Originally Posted by tomwed

If you are my age, 62, ask yourself if life was life easier for you then if you were 18 today?
If we had it better then we need to thank those before us.
If you are 18 and being successful is not as easy then they need to blame us.

I would be very happy to find out that my generation looked out for their kids.

Show me that proof and I will buy you a beer and we can celebrate that we looked out for the next generation too.

Leaving the young people deep in debt is just about the worst thing I can think that you would do. I suspect that future generations facing longer life span, higher medical costs (have you notice how the cost are going up and wait until next year), and no way out will not miss the chance to go to school for nothing.

The Pell grants are great...they are not used. Why not suggest changing the wage requirements for Pell ? But see THAT plan is not as pol.....y tasty as this proposal. This is purely a stunt...there are so many things that can be done without this proposal BUT that would require working with congress and not being able to try another grandstand act.

Sorry if this is offensive but this comes up every January and as you look back on your life, do you recall when this was handled NOT IN THE PRESS until after it was hashed and debated in congress ? Remember those days ?

[claricecolin]

Someone asked up thread about Pell Grants. These are awarded strictly by income and the most you can get for 2014-2015 year is $5730

2014-2015 Pell Grant Amount - Student Loans and Paying for College Blog

[tomwed]

Originally Posted by Rags123

Leaving the young people deep in debt is just about the worst thing I can think that you would do. I suspect that future generations facing longer life span, higher medical costs (have you notice how the cost are going up and wait until next year), and no way out will not miss the chance to go to school for nothing.

The Pell grants are great...they are not used. Why not suggest changing the wage requirements for Pell ? But see THAT plan is not as pol.....y tasty as this proposal. This is purely a stunt...there are so many things that can be done without this proposal BUT that would require working with congress and not being able to try another grandstand act.

Sorry if this is offensive but this comes up every January and as you look back on your life, do you recall when this was handled NOT IN THE PRESS until after it was hashed and debated in congress ? Remember those days ?

If you are my age, 62, ask yourself if life was life easier for you then if you were 18 today?



Was it?

[Rags123]

Originally Posted by tomwed

If you are my age, 62, ask yourself if life was life easier for you then if you were 18 today?



Was it?

I am 75 years old and I do not understand what your question has to do with anything, especially this thread. But, to answer, in some ways it was better and in some ways it was worse.

The bottom line is we have Pell grants available and other programs to pay for those that want to go to college, and most importantly no matter what, this country cannot afford it.

It is easier in some ways today and it is more difficult in others and it will be that way forever I suspect. Parents need to help their kids learn the path and get them on that path. If you want to get all philosophical on this, the breakdown of the family leads the way in negatives, not lack of college and frankly I am still working on the fact that NOBODY is knocking down the doors for using Pells...still have a bit more to check on.

If a state can afford it, then offer it....federal government does not need, nor should get involved.

To fill in the blanks for you, both my wife and I were children of steelworkers. We both attended college (I spent 6 years in the Navy as well) we both paid for out own college as our parents certainly could not afford it. We both worked in college in the dining hall to earn money. Seems rough then but looking back it was a a nice ride.