Tell me why it is necessary to exercise our 2nd amendment by owning four guns and a high power rifle? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. What possible reason could there be for owning such powerful weaponry? A disaster waiting to happen.

Oh!, Billy how we've missed you
 

My only question, when would it be necessary to have a gun with rapid fire, one shot after the other in this country? I understand the right to bear arms, for protection and hunting????....Of course we don't know what was going thru Adam's mind at the time, but I understand that he had a lot of "alone time" with video games and such....some of the video games can be very violent...But when there is a will, there is a way, Could this have been avoided, really!?





TE=billethkid;594750]the guns as already stated are not the problem.
We have become, like it or not, an anything goes society....swearing is common place in public, movies, television....killing in entertainment is common place in the news, the movies and on television...ditto sex....ditto people slaughtering people.

AND GOD forbid anymore that we try to do something about and bring into action every political, special interest group, minority group (not referring to race) who MIGHT object. And as a result the now all too common place linguine spined leaders at every level who fear to offend somebody for something.

We continue to allow the degrading of core valuesthat actually punish those who do wrong.

It is not the guns....look in the mirror....we the people have become so permissive we have no idea anymore what to do when something bad happens or when someone does something bad.

GOD forbid we try to use dicipline...punishment...or law enforcement.

IT IS NOT THE GUNS.....that is a cop out, political issue that will solve absolutely nothing.

Does anyone think for one minute that gun control would have prevented the lunatic of today from employing some other means of accomplishing the need to do some killing? Of course not.

IT AIN'T THE GUNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

btk[/QUOTE]

:agree: I agree with you 1000% You are absolutely right on this. Excellent post and well written.

It is the type of weapon and the ease of putting them in the hands of deranged people that I am troubled with. You can acquire an assault rifle and ammo easier than you can adopt a dog in this country. I am a hunter raised on a farm and will always own guns, but I find something kinda creepy about someone that wants assault rifles and automatic pistols like the glock and a 33 round clip.

Loss for word....
 

This latest incident has me at a complete loss for words. I cannot imagine in my wildest dreams that I would send my child to school only for them never to return alive. As some of you have stated, this world has become a different place with killings, no one being held accountable for much, the "F" word is most frequently used on TV now, sex is everywhere and humans run wild with not much guidance. I believe that reform starts with each of us. If we all took just one thing we did incorrectly......not stop at a stop sign, not littering, picking up after our pets, using our signals in the cars and carts.....just the little things.....it would be a start. We need to hold ourselves and our children accountable. The world is a mess and I fear it is going to get much worse so prepare. What happened to society and treating each other with kindness and respect? Maybe everyone needs to be armed?? Perhaps they would think twice about taking the lives of others.

I totally agree that we are all emotionally effected by this tragedy. I also agree that if these children's deaths don't cause our lawmakers to act, nothing will. Time for them to get busy.

I agree with Figmo, BTK and Lark ...

It's not the gun laws that are to blame. It's the culture of violence in which we live. We need to stop exposing our children to violence on television, in the news, in video games, on the internet, at the movies. Children need to be taught AT HOME to love and respect others, and that violence isn't normal or permissable.

the issue is to determine what it is they should be acting upon.
If they are capable of acting it will not be because they know, understand the problem and are taking action(s) to be sure it does not happen again.

The government has shown time and again they will not do ANYTHING that will go against their re-election. Period!

If they cannot agree to stop spending money they do not have how in the world does any thinking person believe they will be capable of doing anything about tragedieis like the recent one in CT?

Let's just go along for a moment that all those who are against gunds and or think that gun controls will prevent such tragedies. So now all congress has to do is determine and agree on which kinds of guns should be controlled or out lawed. Auto? Semi auto? Any gun that can be fired rapidly? 20 shot magazine? 12? 10? Domestic only? Foreign ? Ammo? calibers?

If anybody thinks our congress will magically find a way to solve the problem....I am waiting to hear what that might sound like.

Guns are nothing more than another political lightning rod that will be controversial forever just like all other partisan issues....infortunately.

What I want to know is what is going to be done to root out the cause of the tragedy? What did this young man do? why? who knew? who knew and in our current society would not come forward to do something about it?

Several other posts refer to the society of today and our attitudes as the real problem. The notion of "not in my back yard"......"dare not say something for fear of offending some one".....eliminate the role political correctness (barf....happens every time I say the words).....bring back discipline. AND since none of this is going to happen....it is much easier to go after the guns. And I use the term easier.....we shall see.

As I have said and figmo bohica and others....it starts by looking in the mirror and demanding change......it is high time for our society to take a step back to a time when many of the ills of today just simply would not be allowed.

Then and only then will there be a possibility to prevent another tragedy like CT.

btk

As a Canadian, maybe you can explain what Canadians do differently that causes such a discrepancy in the number of annual gun deaths, 52 in Canada compared to 10,728 in the US is 2011?

How do Canadians not allow the culture of violence that is running wildly in this country? Canadians see the same movies, play the same video games, use the same internet? Is it all a matter of family values being different in Canada, or more discipline in the homes?

"It's not the gun laws that are to blame. It's the culture of violence in which we live. We need to stop exposing our children to violence on television, in the news, in video games, on the internet, at the movies. Children need to be taught AT HOME to love and respect others, and that violence isn't normal or permissable.

I would agree with parts of this post and disagree with other parts. First, when we were kids, we almost all had cap guns and played Cowboys and Indians with plenty of play shooting of each other and seeing each other clasp their hand over their heart and go down dying. There were all the cowboy movies and television shows with Roy, Gene, and Hoppy doing violence on the bad guys who did violence on good guys. None was graphic!!

It is the graphic violence of video games like Black Ops or World of Warcraft or Grand Theft Auto that is a problem (but not the whole problem). Who buys the games for the kids? Mom and Dad do and that is the problem.

The teaching of respect needs to be taught at home, school, and church.

There also is NO NEED for civilians to own high capacity magazines for their rifles or pistols. There is a need for more evaluation and treatment of people suspected of mental problems. I am sure Figmo and Ladydoc would agree with those two statements.

Will Congress do anything? Probably not - the NRA has too many Congressmen scared of not winning re-election if they vote in a reasonable (non-NRA approved) way.

The shooter has been said to have "personality" disorder, or "Ausbergers". Whichever he may or may not have had.....what kind of mother would own and keep guns around a mentaly impaired child??

Buggy, good to see you again. Yes, I have told some that were taking my class to get a concealed permit that I would not sign their certificate, because of their attitude. Not adult enough to be responsible to own let along carry a firearm. Have been told "I will sue you." My answer, sue away, we will see who wins what.

You will have to explain to me why civilians should not be allowed to own hi-cap magazines for pistol or rifles. As long as the criminals own them, law abiding citizens have the right to own them. So on that one, we will have to agree to disagree.

You can thank our criminal congress critters for allowing all the PC on the mental cases to be roaming the streets. Personal freedom and don't you dare say anything about someone's kid, they will sue you. See no parental responsibility about raising their children. Why do we let a small majority take prayer out of schools. Why do we, you name it, allow a small majority to take away anything. If you don't like it, don't do it.

My heart goes out to all those that lost love ones. I know how it feels. It is something that you never get over.

All of us need to start to do something to stop this, and make, from the top down, start taking responsibility and get this country back to the basics. Now, not, next week, but now, so that something like this does not ever happen again.

Just because criminals own them, doesn't make it a reason for civilians to own them. If there are no assault type weapons for sale, there will be a very limited black market for them and they would
be EXTREMELY expensive. Most criminals, and deranged individuals, the type you and I will come in contact with will never get their hands on them because they don't have lots of money. The cartel types and organized crime types will still but the majority of these disasters are not from cartels and organized crime. They are from street gangs, deranged people and low lifes.

The folks or other relatives of the deranged might have access to assault weapons. And you can never really tell when someone with what appears to be mild mental health problems will break. There are a very large number of people in the US who have some kind of mild mental health problem. http://www.nami.org/template.cfm?sec...mental_illness

I do not see any easy answers with preventing these kind of atrocities.

Tragedy in Connecticut
 

I have received many emails and facebook messages from
distraught, grieving Mothers. These wonderful women come from
many different cultures yet we are all feeling one and
the same emotion......profound sadness.

One woman sent me this so I thought I would pass it
along:

THE SOLDIER'S SANCTUARY

Evil does not exist within a gun.
It exists in the minds and hearts
of those who pull the trigger for
evil purposes.

If I had it to do over, I would never have purchased
those popular, violent and graphic video games for
my son. What was I thinking.... should have
banned them from our home to take a stand against
violence!

This bible phrase has new meaning for me:

"Suffer little children and forbid them not to
come unto me such is the kingdom of heaven"
- Gospel of Matthew Chapter 19 Verse 14


WCS

I agree, but that is a HUGE discrepancy. Are the guns laws stricter in Canada? Must be......

With all due respect Figmo, this is a ridiculous argument. Civilians including the criminal type, should not be allowed to own hi-cap magazines or other military weapons because there is no legitimate reason for them to own them. If they were unlawful, there would be a possibility they were found out and the weapons would be confiscated and they could be prosecuted. Realizing that they could own them illegally, what would be the logic that law abiders should then also own them? Do you forsee a firefight between criminals and law abiding citizens where each armed with assault type weaponry the outcome would be positive? This is the kind of stuff the NRA promotes and most people disagree with, but since they have many lawmakers in their pocket, little can be achieved. I think the overwhelming majority of Americans think that military weaponry should not be in the hands of civilians. I think the overwhelming majority of Americans cannot fathom why 40% of guns sold are sold without background checks as the result of the "gun show loophole". I am sure you are a conscienscious gun owner and instructor, but unfortunately it has been proven that many people are not. . And I am not a sissy or a pollyanna, I understand that we cannot always prevent things like this before the fact, but that does not mean we should not take whatever actions are available to us sooner rather that later

By the way, when I look in the mirror I am pleased with the person I see. The people that are narcissistic or mentally disturbed look in the mirror and believe they see the only person that is right or has worth.

We have become a re-active and very emotional society. witness how long and extensive coverage continues with celebrity deaths mass shootings, a celebrity's bad behavior. this extensive coverage is bad because it marginalizes the event and actually creates more apathy than empathy. Hollywood types will cry out for gun control and then continue to make movies like Ä natural born Killer."

Worse yet all of this attention getting will cause politicians to look for an easy answer and of course that easy answer is gun control. Forgive me but i was not one to fall for Obama's alligator's tears. He was posing for his push on gun control.

The direct cause of this latest mass killing was again a young person in desperate need of mental health care. One cannot judge the family. There is little help either from private or public sources for families. Some families abondon mentally unstable members, while some mentally unstable leave on their own accord. Even for famiies willing to help the mental health community is either inept or not provided suffiecient funds in which to operate successfully. Mental health professionals often misdiagnose their patients, some abuse them or simply show little compassion in the same manner they would a cancer patient.

The direct cause of this and many such tragedies is our nation's inability to deal effectively with this problem but this long drawn out emotional display by the mass media will bury this fact.. We seem not to have a problem with tackling other issues, some more complex and life threatening.

In past generations our american ancestors dealt with massacre, those killed in wars, etc by paying proper respects and then moving on with the determination that they would deal with the root cause and eliminate it. Now we mourn and mourn and mourn and then deflate

To be sure my heart cries out for those killed in Connecticut but if we really want to honor them do it by writing to your represenatives to pass laws that help mental health professionals and families deal effectively with loved ones needing care.

Remember several school children were attacked not with a gun but a knife in China. finally let me end with this disclosure. I do not own a gun nor do i have the motivation to want one. However, I do believe strongly that the
2nd Amendment has as much relevance today as it did when it was originally passed. finally to those who believe that the orginators had flint locks and could not imagine today's weapons must remember that in today's world flint locks woud be ineffective. Ergo to suggest that semi-automatic don't fit the 2nd amendment must remeber we are looking at today's world not 1776.

If this boy did not have access to a gun(guns), these children would be alive. Don't compare a gun to a knife....ridiculous.

Since Wisconsin recently approved the concealed gun law, I know of a whole lot of idiots out there with guns.....sitting in bars, getting drunk, with a gun in their pocket.

You diminish the credibility of your arguments with a partisan political cheap-shot such as this.

I haven't really examined the statistics. As far as I can see, all North American peoples are pretty similar, be it Ontario or Nebraska or Florida. Of course the population in Canada is around 34 million compared to around 311 million in the US. Canada does have the same culture of violence being readily available in movies, on the internet and in video games. I do see one difference between the countries. Canada is a very popular destination for immigrants, because we do encourage multiculturalism. We protect cultural identities and languages rather than expecting immigrants to become similar to us. It's just a personal observation, but there are a lot of immigrants from Europe and Asia who seem to hold their children to higher standards and expect more in terms of obedience, hard work and respect. Please don't flame me for saying that.

eweissenbach....I am renaming you to e wise is back.

Very much the same here
 

Agree entirely with this last comment. But, I think this is the same with all immigrants who come to our countries looking for a better life, not so much for themselves, but definitely for their children.

One only has to look at the professions to see who are taking over the top positions, mainly children of immigrants because (IMO) they see the opportunities which they would never have had in their own countries, but our children have grown up with these opportunities and are very much inclined to take them for granted.

I think you are right. And because children are being raised by others now rather than in the home like ours were, they aren't exactly getting the same things told them, day after day. And because we moms were human, we would be impatient if they didn't act fairly decently. We wanted them to turn out right. All of those things have changed. There are good caregivers for little ones but it is NOT the same, or as effective as people being with their own children when they are little and learning what matters from someone who truly loves you. (values)

But... all of those things cannot fix someone who is deranged or mentally ill. That isn't an issue with a simple answer.

That was then. This is now. What has changed, you ask? It's the ages of the victims in this case that makes it so horrific. After listening to the coroner explain how these little angels died, I am sick to my stomach.

What else has changed, you ask? The frequency that these events are happening -- one happened Tuesday, one happened Friday.

IMO, no law maker wants to have the blood of children on their hands.

While I probably would support laws restricting the type of guns allowed for purchase...I simply know so little about guns, etc that is how I think I feel.

Same day this happened someone in China went after school children with a knife.

I submit the problem is NOT with guns.....people today live in a false world...a world of virtual reality. Generally speaking we live in a world where people think that what they think is what every one should think. We have no...none...feelings for others, only ourselves. We cloak that and manifest caring publicly but we do not...and again, I am speaking in a general sense. We are in this country so self involved that we feel we deserve what we want and when we want it and there is no reason we should not do what we want.

NOT ONE PERSON who knew this dark hearted person had problems came forward to have him taken off the street, and we will find many signs he exhibited but still he was protected. And the children died. Make a political issue of this and ignore the real problems and more will die.

Whether it is the debt of the country or any particular issue as with guns, not dealing with it because it is unpopular never ever works. Those you expect to take guns off the street put people ON the street that should not be there so why would anyone expect any different results here.

Bottom line...I hear folks on tv ranting and ravin about gun laws but never ever mentioning the real bottom line !

I totally agree that someone should have come forward about this young man's mental problems. According to TV reports, his mother told friends that she was very concerned about his mental health, but as far as I've heard, she never sought professional help.

Money was not as issue with these people as they seem to be very well-to-do. The investigation is only in the preliminary stages, so much more will be divulged.

In the incident in China that people keep referring to, no child was killed. The coroner today gave the most horrific account of the way the children in CT were killed. One child was shot 11 times at close range. There will be 28 funerals there before Christmas.

There are many issues that contributed to this atrocity. The primary one is The perpetrater of the act, who was obviously troubled and demented. What, one might ask, keeps equally troubled people in other cultures from perpetrating similar acts? Well, part of it is likely the culture itself - where violence is not nearly as celebrated or available in the media. Another factor may be that guns are not as available or tolerated in other cultures. There are many things that need to be examined as we try to grasp this issue and deal with it. But it seems to me that a PART of the issue is gun safety. Gun CONTROL is a hot button issue with many that continue to cite the 2nd amendment and echo the talking points of the NRA. It is really a gun safety issue - most people don't believe that your guns should be taken away, but that safety of all requires some common sense regulation that minimize the firearm part of the equation that comes together to create these horrific incidents. Quit trying to imply that people who favor no additional regulation on firearms are portrayed as uncaring; I don't think anyone says or even infers that. Everyone is sickened by acts such as this, but we should all be willing to have a dialogue over how they can be prevented and that discussion should logically include, but not exclusively, gun safety regulation.

Amazing that one a thread about 20 schoolkids being murdered by a psycho with high capacity magazine pistols that there are people defending high capacity magazines by saying "since criminals have them, law-abiding citizens need them to protect themselves from the criminals."

Another person said he "was not taken in by crocodile tears of Pres. Obama who was acting that way just to have gun control take place." Ridiculous as well as the cheapest political shot I have ever seen.

Others were saying the 2nd Amendment guarantees citizens to have the highest firepower they can find. WRONG! It does not say anything of the sort.

Just keep reminding yourselves when making these ridiculous statements - 20 funerals for children just at Christmas time. How can you look at yourself in the mirror? Shame.

Just as many that are sitting around here in the Village Country Clubs. See it all the time. Next time I see one might just call the cops and teach them a lesson. Call it a wake up call to the rest of the idiots.

over 100 shots in less than two minutes. One child had 11 bullet holes. Who needs these sort of weapons to protect themselves or go hunt?

[QUOTE=gerryann;595078]If this boy did not have access to a gun(guns), these children would be alive. Don't compare a gun to a knife....ridiculous.

I do not think the issue is comparing a gun to a knife. The issue is one does not need a gun to commit mass murfder.

You are entitled to your opinion whether the children would be alive if the perp did not have access to guns. You are making one very big assumption....that his desire or need or want to kill those young children was to do it with a gun.
There is absolutely no assurance he would not have carried out his task with or without a gun....just like the person did in China.

The Afghanistan rebels seem to be able to dispatch one hell of a lot of death and destruction to our troops without the use of guns.

Where there is a will there is a way.......for the nut jobs....they will not be deterred because they do not have a gun.

btk

Zero children were killed in that knife attack in China. Zero children with the knife attack were killed.

Thank you....I knew that. This thread began as an offering for prayers and condolances for the town and those lost, and quickly became an attack on GUNS as if they cause violence...they do not CAUSE violence was my only point !
This is not a defense of the NRA..I own no guns...never did...have no "dog in the fight"....I just KNOW that the sheer existence of any gun will not cause violence and feel we are just glossing once again over the real problems !

[quote=billethkid;595193]Well, one could concievably commit mass murder by any number of means, including, but not exclusive to, knives, ropes, hammers, baseball bats, paperclips - you name it; any of them could be used under the right circumstances. However, bombs and guns are the most common and least problematic means of mass murder, and both should be difficult for disturbed people to acquire. Do you really think that this apparently skinny nutjob could have killed 27 people without a gun or a bomb? He may have had the will, but not likely, the way. A gun is a symbol of power to many people and if they are mentally unbalanced, it apparently is too often easy to take their frustrations and demons out on others using one. We can't protect everyone and make every situation perfectly safe, but we can be open to addressing the problems that bring about situations like this, and put all the options on the table.

I can not imagine a more horrible event.

Yes, I am a gun owner. Politics aside, something needs to be done - but what?

As oldcoachED has stated (in another post) safety and mental competence are (obviously) important aspects when issuing a permit to a person
As a former instructor, safety ALWAYS came first. Don't mean to put Figmo on the spot but I do believe he will agree with me.

However, does anyone REALLY think that criminals - repeat - CRIMINALS are going to obey more gun laws?

Do you really think that ALL guns could be collected and
destroyed - IMPOSSIBLE!

BTW - Almost every handgun you buy is NOT an automatic weapon - this is a misnomer. They are semi-automatic - you have to pull the trigger each time to shoot.

I confess that I do not have the answer.

[QUOTE=Figmo Bohica;595186]Just as many that are sitting around here in the Village Country Clubs. See it all the time. Next time I see one might just call the cops and teach them a lesson. Call it a wake up call to the rest of the idiots. Florida CWL Instructor
NRA Certified Law Enforcement Handgun/Shotgun Instructor
NRA Certified Civilian Handgun/Shotgun Instructor
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Home Protection Instructor
Retired Army Military Police Investigator - 20 years, 4 months, 13 days
Retired Deputy Sheriff/Corrections Officer
IDPA Safety Officer Instructor.

With all of your credentials, I would think it would be your duty (either moral or legal) to call the cops when you see someone breaking the law like that. Isn't it illegal to be carrying a concealed weapon just sitting in the bar area of a restaurant (do not have to be drinking) in Florida?

One more thing that would help would be if the news media would put more attention on the victims and heroes and less on the killers.
Most can name the location and the killers name but nobody else.
These losers know this and it is one way for them to become famous. One news channel has the killer's picture, name, and background on every 5 minutes.

ugomet, I agree....safety and mental competence are important aspects when issuing gun permits. In California, if you have a gun, you are required to have a safe to lock up the weapon. Otherwise, you will be held responsible for any crime committed when your gun goes missing.

The sad part to all this is some solutions are so simple...start by raising the age that a person can obtain a gun permit; check the mental competence of applicants (not an easy process but we have to start somewhere); develop stricter penalties for the gun owners who do not safely store their weapons (remember that the Columbine shooter used his father's gun)...

Baby steps, I know...but if we as a nation started taking the above steps years ago, yesterday's babies may not have died.