[mtdjed]

How could it not happen? Air Controller overload, Interlapping military and commercial flights at nearby airports, military night training flights in overloaded commercial airport landing paths. Government, congressional, executive desire for easy transport from midtown DC. Time for some intelligent decisions. Eliminate overlapping flightpath air facilities. It will not get better unless a major shift is made. Don't allow congress or executive civilians to influence decisions for convenience

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by mtdjed

How could it not happen? Air Controller overload, Interlapping military and commercial flights at nearby airports, military night training flights in overloaded commercial airport landing paths. Government, congressional, executive desire for easy transport from midtown DC. Time for some intelligent decisions. Eliminate overlapping flightpath air facilities. It will not get better unless a major shift is made. Don't allow congress or executive civilians to influence decisions for convenience

There is no "overlapping flight paths" or "interlapping flights". What's an "executive civilian" ?

The airspace in that area is well known and specific. This crash will mostly likely end up being attributed to simple human error. Based on the current information, the Blackhawk was in the wrong place and erroneously informed ATC that they had the CRJ in view.

That BH was manned by 3 professionals, at least 2 of which were qualified pilots. To mis-identify a commercial aircraft under those circumstances, is inexcusable. ATC and both aircraft should have received a CA warning (Collision Avoidance) and both ATC & the BH should have taken immediate action. It appears the CRJ was exactly where it was supposed to be and not in a position to take evasive action. Also, with a Separation Error of that magnitude, there was likely a audible warning in the tower (at least that's how it used to work.)

In my opinion, all this noise about the "system", is simply that ... noise. The system usually works perfectly fine, it's the people who fail. ATC for assuming the BH pilots actually had the CRJ in view (even though he had a CA warning) and the BH pilots for not being vigilant.

[Boffin]

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

There is no "overlapping flight paths" or "interlapping flights". What's an "executive civilian" ?

The airspace in that area is well known and specific. This crash will mostly likely end up being attributed to simple human error. Based on the current information, the Blackhawk was in the wrong place and erroneously informed ATC that they had the CRJ in view.

That BH was manned by 3 professionals, at least 2 of which were qualified pilots. To mis-identify a commercial flight under those circumstances, is inexcusable. ATC and both aircraft should have received a CA warning (Collision Avoidance) and both ATC & the BH should have taken immediate action. It appears the CRJ was exactly where it was supposed to be and not in a position to take evasive action. Also, with a Separation Error of that magnitude, there was likely a audible warning in the tower (at least that's how it used to work.)

In my opinion, all this noise about the "system", is simply that ... noise. The system usually works perfectly fine, it's the people who fail. ATC for assuming the BH pilots actually had the CRJ in view (even though he had a CA warning) and the BH pilots for not being vigilant.

A few assumptions there that have yet to be proven.

In the end, it is almost always human error. The “system” is there to try to remove as many chances for human error as possible and to reduce their impact if they do occur. If parts of the system are removed then more errors can occur with serious effects.

The second controller, fewer flights to reduce workload, and more of a buffer between allowed airspace would all have helped.

I wonder if the collision avoidance mentioned is effective or even active on final approach and under 500 feet.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

A few assumptions there that have yet to be proven.

In the end, it is almost always human error. The “system” is there to try to remove as many chances for human error as possible and to reduce their impact if they do occur. If parts of the system are removed then more errors can occur with serious effects.

The second controller, fewer flights to reduce workload, and more of a buffer between allowed airspace would all have helped.

I wonder if the collision avoidance mentioned is effective or even active on final approach and under 500 feet.

I guess the real question, and probably the proximate cause of the collision, is why was the BH with a celling of 200 feet at 350 feet?

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

I guess the real question, and probably the proximate cause of the collision, is why was the BH with a celling of 200 feet at 350 feet?

And why wasn’t that noticed and both aircraft alerted?

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

And why wasn’t that noticed and both aircraft alerted?

Which then goes to the unanswered question: Who was the air traffic controller responsible, what was his qualifications and experience level?

[opinionist]

I watched a video of the crash.
It looked like a helicopter under remote control being used as a missile.

[Caymus]

The airport is very small for the passenger volume and is landlocked so is unlikely to expand. It has been years since I used it, but I remember my flights taking off at steep angles to meet regulations.

[Bassdeer]

Originally Posted by opinionist

I watched a video of the crash.
It looked like a helicopter under remote control being used as a missile.

That's a reach. Blackhawk wrong altitude, not enough eyes in control tower.

Close case.

[Blueblaze]

As a pilot myself, it's inconceivable that tower would give clearance to cross an active runway's glidepath under any conditions, much less at night, with a commercial airliner on short-final to an airport practically down-town in the nation's capital -- and to a military helicopter on a night-training mission wearing night-vision goggles that restrict peripheral vision 80%!

No tower would give me that clearance on a clear day in Tulsa, if I was the only thing on radar!

But apparently that's considered routine at Reagan International. And whichever gooberment moron approved that should do hard time for the manslaughter of 67 innocent lives.

[mtdjed]

[QUOTE=BrianL99;2406053]There is no "overlapping flight paths" or "interlapping flights". What's an "executive civilian" ?

No Overlapping flight paths? Two AC Crash into each other. Latitude and longitude within their prescribed path, but one was too high due to human error. Same type issue happened previous day but no crash.

Yes, human error either in AC or Controller direction. Nighttime training mission. If you look at how to minimize the impact of Human error, wouldn't you eliminate possibility that an error of 200 feet could cause a disaster.
This airport is in the right place for Executive civilians such as congress and government. But for safety, shouldn't be in a place where 200 foot human error kills people.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by mtdjed

How could it not happen? Air Controller overload, Interlapping military and commercial flights at nearby airports, military night training flights in overloaded commercial airport landing paths. Government, congressional, executive desire for easy transport from midtown DC. Time for some intelligent decisions. Eliminate overlapping flightpath air facilities. It will not get better unless a major shift is made. Don't allow congress or executive civilians to influence decisions for convenience

That airport gets a lot of traffic. This kind of accident rarely happens. It is a tragedy.


Hopefully the investigation can find the cause and do something concrete to prevent this from happening.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

That airport gets a lot of traffic. This kind of accident rarely happens. It is a tragedy.


Hopefully the investigation can find the cause and do something concrete to prevent this from happening.

Well, I would think that helicopters staying below their 200 foot ceiling would be a good start

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Well, I would think that helicopters staying below their 200 foot ceiling would be a good start

Why did it do that would be my question.