Reviewing so many threads over the past few weeks I have come to realize that the members of TOTV have delivered intelligent logical and impassioned commentary on a variety of issues So ignoring the usual partisan point counter point debating I invite members to develop a dialogue on a critical question: "Is America Dying?"

Perhaps far from what you meant but I have a difficult time believing anything is infinite. So yes, America is dying, all of us are in the process of dying, the world will one day end in some fashion.

We have grown up and lived all of our lives in a society knowing and believing the U.S. is number one at EVERYTHING. When I was a kid I remember seeing an occasional foreign car on the road and laughing at such a strange site. A public school education was top notch where you towed the line or paid the price, both at school and at home. You knew if you worked hard your version of the "American Dream" would become reality. We were the most technologically advanced, most affluent, best democratic nation on earth that every other country wanted to emulate. We have fallen into a state of disrepair that may be insurmountable.

I do think the America of today is just a fragment of the country we once knew. Our place on the world stage will be diminished and we will no longer turn heads. But the memories of the positive environment that surrounded us as grew up will never let us lose hope.

Originally Posted by lazeelink

We have grown up and lived all of our lives in a society knowing and believing the U.S. is number one at EVERYTHING. When I was a kid I remember seeing an occasional foreign car on the road and laughing at such a strange site. A public school education was top notch where you towed the line or paid the price, both at school and at home. You knew if you worked hard your version of the "American Dream" would become reality. We were the most technologically advanced, most affluent, best democratic nation on earth that every other country wanted to emulate. We have fallen into a state of disrepair that may be insurmountable.

I do think the America of today is just a fragment of the country we once knew. Our place on the world stage will be diminished and we will no longer turn heads. But the memories of the positive environment that surrounded us as grew up will never let us lose hope.

That's a great summary.

All I can add is that however this has happened, we've done it to ourselves. Either by inattention, narrow ideology, lessened moral values or just plain greed, we've lost sight of what was important about being an American.

Is America dying? I wouldn't go that far. But we are certainly a very sick society, and an even sicker economy. If we don't get it turned around and soon, I will admit that the prognosis for the patient isn't good.

The path for this nation’s decline began with the civil war. Up until that time, people were citizens of their respective states first, and citizens of the United States second. This was truly a republic as stated famously by Benjamin Franklin when asked at the end of the Constitutional convention whether we had a republic or a monarchy answered, “A republic if you can keep it.”

The concept of the republic was built upon the states having clear checks on the actions of the Federal government. This vanished with the end of the civil war when the then national government asserted full control over the states of the confederacy, abolished local elections, put the states under the rule of the United States Army and denied Southern States the right to representation in Congress. The concept of a limited National government had ceased to exist.

The remaining check the states had on the National Government was the Constitutional requirement that members of the United States Senate be elected by the state legislatures. The seventh amendment to the Constitution erased that important check by the states on the national government.

Today, the Tenth Amendment is simply a curiosity and the interstate commerce clause has been stretched beyond recognition. What has this meant – we now have approximately 300,000 American members of our armed forces stationed in more than 150 countries around the world. This does not include Navy personnel at sea supporting the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc. as well as those ported in foreign bases such as Yokohama. We are no longer a republic, but rather an empire. I know we like to think of this as the benevolent nation, giving and demanding nothing in return. The rest of the world does not see us that way.

The United States today is an empire. Like any empire we are close to having an emperor – our President. President Obama is not an extreme example of this, but following the examples of his predecessors, he has no qualm about committing us to an open-ended war without even consulting with Congress beforehand or even today.

We have not been able to keep our republic. The United States is now an empire and close to becoming a monarchy. Rome was glorious for years having abandoned its republic for a monarchy. The end was not pretty either for Rome or the Western World.

To correct what is happening, we need to starve the beast. Cutting off the national government’s ability to spend with its open checkbook will be more than difficult – it may be impossible. But if we cannot do it, do not be surprised when the barbarians arrive and assume control.

I do recommend reading Gibbons for those of you who have not done so. His account of the end of the Roman Empire is too close to what is happening today to dismiss.

[QUOTE=Villages Kahuna;346628]

All I can add is that however this has happened, we've done it to ourselves. Either by inattention, narrow ideology, lessened moral values or just plain greed, we've lost sight of what was important about being an American.


Villages Kahuna - I couldn't agree more with your above statements.

[QUOTE=BBQMan;346630]The path for this nation’s decline began with the civil war. Up until that time, people were citizens of their respective states first, and citizens of the United States second. This was truly a republic as stated famously by Benjamin Franklin when asked at the end of the Constitutional convention whether we had a republic or a monarchy answered, “A republic if you can keep it.”

BBQMan - Very interesting take on the inception of our decline. My narrow mindedness made me focus on the past 60 odd years, the scope of my experiences. The U.S. emerged from WWII a powerful world leader and built on that supremacy for many decades. In my view the kink in our armor started to show up perhaps 20-25 years ago.


We have not been able to keep our republic. The United States is now an empire and close to becoming a monarchy. Rome was glorious for years having abandoned its republic for a monarchy. The end was not pretty either for Rome or the Western World.

To correct what is happening, we need to starve the beast. Cutting off the national government’s ability to spend with its open checkbook will be more than difficult – it may be impossible. But if we cannot do it, do not be surprised when the barbarians arrive and assume control.

Agreed.

and all the other corporations that pay no taxes.
If the revenues were reduced even more than they are, maybe we could get the dolts in Washington attention.

Jack up your dependents and run your tax deductions to zero. You have tax returns to settle up, but the lack of funds in the interim might slow them down.

Why not?

btk

Some experts might defend their position by quantifying statisics such as our GDP, PPI, CPI imports v exports, etc.

But to me the defining item is the America people. More specifically their will detemrination. their belief in the moral imperative and their willingness to defend their freedom

In my humble view america made a mistake in doing away with the draft. Far too many young people are just too disengaged. They will candidly tell you they could care less about Iraq, etc because they know they will never have to fight that war or any. The iimigation issue has left us a less cohesive group . People have lost faith in their political corporate, religious leaders

So how can we turn this around and to whom can we turn?

See my post on Inside Job, the documentary now out on DVD. I think America is being murdered.

For those of you that have never visted a 3d world nation or been in a nation at war really need to get involved in politics and rethink your voting habits. Vote all those in office out. Then the next time around, vote those out. Once we have their attention, get the laws changed back to where the state governor appointed the Senators, and if the people of the state did not like the governor he was recalled along with the senators and new ones appointed.

End birth right citizenship. It is not for illegals who run across the border, drop a kid and then claim it as a citizen. It was for those that were brought to this country by force, remember the slaves, those folks that were brought and sold. That is what the 14th amendment was to insure that they were given all rights of being NATURAL BORN citizens.

Force the Federal government to get rid of all the Departments that are not authorized by the consitution, either peacefully or by force. It will be the Federal governments choice. Bring all the troops home from all those countries that we are protecting and they are not paying for this protection, Germany, Korea, etc.

There are over 110 million gun owners in the United States wtih about 300 millions firearms and billions of rounds of ammunition. This is the reason that gun control then confiscation has not taken place in a whole sale way. To many of us so called red necks still alive. But give it a couple more generations and the children will be dumbed down to the point that it will no longer matter. They will willing follow the orders of Washington and the One world government, the UN.

Take it from someone who have been in lots of 3d world countries and in a couple nations at war. It ain't pretty and its dog eat dog. If you are not the strong dog on the block you will be owned by him. Before I let that happen to me, I will die defending the American Way of life and will not live has a slave to anyone.

Assume America is dying in part from lack of leadership

How do you define effective leadership (skill sets, etc)?
Do you see anyone on the horizon who fits your definition?

Really no. We need to find someone who is looking out for the country and not their own pocket. Personally I don't think that we can find one in this country who is a real leader.

Ever since being a politican has become a career job, we have not had any leadership. They are only looking to fill their pockets. Term limits, but that has to be established by US, you and me and the rest of the voters. No politician will ever vote for term limits. To much money to be made by making it a career.

I think that if we get enough people involved in a political movement, and call it whatever you want, tea party, green party, libs, dems, repubs it doesn't matter. They only get one term and everything they do is for the betterment of the country, not those that donate large sums of money to get their MAN re-elected time after time. All our washington leaders are owned by someone and it is't the American People as they are so fond of saying.

It has always made me wonder why someone would spend 20 million to get a job that only pays 170K a year or so for 6 years. Everyone of the elected official that we have that has been in office more that 2 terms are millionaire or better. Makes you wonder how we lasted this long.

Everyone better start counting the days until 2012 election and vote for anyone who is not currently in office.

As for the current crop of presidental candidates, all I see is a herd of idiots on both sides of the isle.

Figmo Bohica, I happen to agree with most of what you have said in both your posts. We need a leader who can excite and motivate the american people but as you state the only people runing are for self-interests only. Do people like Paul Ryan or Marco Rubio represent hope?