Is one astute Dude!! The first part is His intelligence, the second is My addition..

What you miss is that your "world saving" batteries DON'T get built without a LOT of energy...that energy is mostly oil. You may save some oil driving the car...but you used just about all...if not all or more...oil making the car...because batteries need a lot of energy to create. Lithium is in limited supply you're NOT going to turn ALL the vehicles into electric.
The point You fail to make is what to do with a few million pounds of Toxic Waste, Spent/worthless batteries? None last forever?? A suggestion, Load them up on elons rocket ships and destroy the universe at the same time as Earth..

Originally Posted by Guest

Is one astute Dude!! The first part is His intelligence, the second is My addition..

What you miss is that your "world saving" batteries DON'T get built without a LOT of energy...that energy is mostly oil. You may save some oil driving the car...but you used just about all...if not all or more...oil making the car...because batteries need a lot of energy to create. Lithium is in limited supply you're NOT going to turn ALL the vehicles into electric.
The point You fail to make is what to do with a few million pounds of Toxic Waste, Spent/worthless batteries? None last forever?? A suggestion, Load them up on elons rocket ships and destroy the universe at the same time as Earth..

My replies are long enough already...I don't list EVERY negative.

You are absolutely correct...they don't last forever...they'll need recycling...which TAKES ENERGY. MORE energy than those batteries will produce.

It's called entropy...most people don't know what it is...and fail to account for it. There is NO "perpetual motion" You CAN'T get MORE energy OUT of a battery than you put in. No matter how efficient a battery is...diesel will beat it out. Pound for pound, dollar for dollar.

As the cost of oil goes up...so will the cost of manufacturing batteries. It's a zero sum reality. EREI - energy return on energy invested.

The REAL solution..the ONLY solution that works...that IS sustainable...isn't going to be popular. The planet has twice as many people as it can carry indefinitely. The current population "runs out of supplies" in the not too distant future. And medicine is trying to PROLONG lives? The POOR included? We used to have wars and disease that would cull half the worlds population here and there. And that was BEFORE oil. A planet with a billion would...even 2 billion. But NOT 9 billion +. Living to be well over 100?

It's a zero sum world out there...there's NOT enough to go around. Right now...we pump oil as fast as we can...THE REAL REASON FOR FINDING ALTERNATIVE ENERGY SOURCES...they WANT us to cut back...they NEED us to cut back because the population keeps growing ...there is always more demand...and it can't be pumped out any faster. We already pumped out ALL the easy oil. NOW...we MUST pump in the arctic, out in frigid oceans, through 6 miles of water, we MUST frack the OLD wells because the other sources aren't putting out fast enough...to meet the increasing demand.

Oil is used for EVERYTHING. It's the key to modern western civilization. We've reached...peak pumping...not peak oil. The oil is there...but it's thick...like molasses...you can only get it out so fast.

Originally Posted by Guest

My replies are long enough already...I don't list EVERY negative.

You are absolutely correct...they don't last forever...they'll need recycling...which TAKES ENERGY. MORE energy than those batteries will produce.

It's called entropy...most people don't know what it is...and fail to account for it. There is NO "perpetual motion" You CAN'T get MORE energy OUT of a battery than you put in. No matter how efficient a battery is...diesel will beat it out. Pound for pound, dollar for dollar.

As the cost of oil goes up...so will the cost of manufacturing batteries. It's a zero sum reality. EREI - energy return on energy invested.

The REAL solution..the ONLY solution that works...that IS sustainable...isn't going to be popular. The planet has twice as many people as it can carry indefinitely. The current population "runs out of supplies" in the not too distant future. And medicine is trying to PROLONG lives? The POOR included? We used to have wars and disease that would cull half the worlds population here and there. And that was BEFORE oil. A planet with a billion would...even 2 billion. But NOT 9 billion +. Living to be well over 100?

It's a zero sum world out there...there's NOT enough to go around. Right now...we pump oil as fast as we can...THE REAL REASON FOR FINDING ALTERNATIVE ENERGY SOURCES...they WANT us to cut back...they NEED us to cut back because the population keeps growing ...there is always more demand...and it can't be pumped out any faster. We already pumped out ALL the easy oil. NOW...we MUST pump in the arctic, out in frigid oceans, through 6 miles of water, we MUST frack the OLD wells because the other sources aren't putting out fast enough...to meet the increasing demand.

Oil is used for EVERYTHING. It's the key to modern western civilization. We've reached...peak pumping...not peak oil. The oil is there...but it's thick...like molasses...you can only get it out so fast.

Entropy is a complex concept from physical chemistry but it has nothing to do with batteries. You are using big words and you do not understand their meaning. Take a course in thermodynamics before you try to use the word entropy.

Originally Posted by Guest

Entropy is a complex concept from physical chemistry but it has nothing to do with batteries. You are using big words and you do not understand their meaning. Take a course in thermodynamics before you try to use the word entropy.

I use "big words" because they DESCRIBE what I'm talking about. I didn't think the term entropy to be that high above your edcational level.

Nol dougie...it is YOU who doesn't understand. I used entropy to TRY to explain to the ignorant rabble that it takes ENERGY to "organize" to "build" something. There's a LOT more energy going into batteries than JUST mining the f@cking lithium! There's a LOT more energy going into MAKING battering...than you'll EVER get out of them. Right now...energy is cheap...oil, gas...it's cheap. What does it cost...$3 dollars a DAY to electrify your house? Heat, air, reefer, TV, computer, lights, hot water...all for $4 a day. WHAT would it cost you if you had to do it EXCLUSIVELY with batteries? How much dougie?

Batteries ARE f@cking "physical chemistry" you stupid f@cking idiot. What...are you black? A woman using a man's name?

You DO NOT get more energy out of a battery than it took to MAKE and CHARGE the f@cking battery you retard. You think you're going to f@cking replace oil with batteries?

Thermodynamics...Newton...how quaint.

Go back to the kids table until you grow up a little more...you're not ready for the adult table and adult conversations yet dougie.

You ARE being duped.

Here ya go douchie...oops...dougie.

"entropy

The idea of entropy comes from a principle of thermodynamics dealing with energy. It usually refers to the idea that everything in the universe eventually moves from order to disorder, and entropy is the measurement of that change.

The word entropy finds its roots in the Greek entropia, which means "a turning toward" or "transformation." The word was used to describe the measurement of disorder by the German physicist Rudolph Clausius and appeared in English in 1868. A common example of entropy is that of ice melting in water. The resulting change from formed to free, from ordered to disordered increases the entropy."

Originally Posted by Guest

Here ya go douchie...oops...dougie.

"entropy

The idea of entropy comes from a principle of thermodynamics dealing with energy. It usually refers to the idea that everything in the universe eventually moves from order to disorder, and entropy is the measurement of that change.

The word entropy finds its roots in the Greek entropia, which means "a turning toward" or "transformation." The word was used to describe the measurement of disorder by the German physicist Rudolph Clausius and appeared in English in 1868. A common example of entropy is that of ice melting in water. The resulting change from formed to free, from ordered to disordered increases the entropy."

Yes it takes energy to overcome entropy to make ice. As we all know the cost of that energy is very inexpensive. Would you care to explain to me why energy cost to make batteries is so much more?

Originally Posted by Guest

Yes it takes energy to overcome entropy to make ice. As we all know the cost of that energy is very inexpensive. Would you care to explain to me why energy cost to make batteries is so much more?

You have another device which overcomes entropy in your house, it's called an air conditioner. You overcome entropy every time you turn it on. Why is the entropy in making a battery so much more?

Originally Posted by Guest

Yes it takes energy to overcome entropy to make ice. As we all know the cost of that energy is very inexpensive. Would you care to explain to me why energy cost to make batteries is so much more?

Originally Posted by Guest

You have another device which overcomes entropy in your house, it's called an air conditioner. You overcome entropy every time you turn it on. Why is the entropy in making a battery so much more?

dougie...you just don't get it...NOTHING is "free"...it ALWAYS takes more energy to make something than you'll get out of it later...always.

It took more energy (created more heat) to make and run your air conditioner than the amount of energy (heat) it removes.

Likewise...it takes MORE energy to manufacture AND charge a battery than you'll EVER get out of it.

They talk about efficiencies in batteries how efficient they are at taking the energy you input and turning it into chemical energy to be released later.

NOTHING is FREE...you NEVER end up with more than you started with when it comes to energy.

If you don't understand now...well...you may never.

According to you...you could run EVERYTHING on the batteries you are manufacturing with NO outside energy...which is false.

This is the minutiae that most people miss.

Sorry...didn't mean to curse at you...it's not your fault.

Originally Posted by Guest

dougie...you just don't get it...NOTHING is "free"...it ALWAYS takes more energy to make something than you'll get out of it later...always.

It took more energy (created more heat) to make and run your air conditioner than the amount of energy (heat) it removes.

Likewise...it takes MORE energy to manufacture AND charge a battery than you'll EVER get out of it.

They talk about efficiencies in batteries how efficient they are at taking the energy you input and turning it into chemical energy to be released later.

NOTHING is FREE...you NEVER end up with more than you started with when it comes to energy.

If you don't understand now...well...you may never.

According to you...you could run EVERYTHING on the batteries you are manufacturing with NO outside energy...which is false.

This is the minutiae that most people miss.

Sorry...didn't mean to curse at you...it's not your fault.

We are agreeing on something, nothing is free. I don't think you know it but you kind of stating the 1st law of thermodynamics. Let's break down you arguments and who knows maybe we can teach you some thermodynamics. Yes you can't get the energy you spent building an air conditioner out of it again. That energy is now "locked" in the unit. This is totally different from the energy you put into it to make it work. Thermodynamics says the amount of energy (electricity) and the amount of cold air produced are equal (ignoring small mechanical loss). As long as you have electricity you can run this cycle over and over again and it is no way related to the amount of energy it took to build the air conditioner, you cannot get that energy back (think of the energy lost in making the metal to build the unit). To get cold air you have to input energy, electricity from either coal or a windmill. Try looking up the first law of thermodynamics and avoid websites pushing pseudo science.

Originally Posted by Guest

We are agreeing on something, nothing is free. I don't think you know it but you kind of stating the 1st law of thermodynamics. Let's break down you arguments and who knows maybe we can teach you some thermodynamics. Yes you can't get the energy you spent building an air conditioner out of it again. That energy is now "locked" in the unit. This is totally different from the energy you put into it to make it work. Thermodynamics says the amount of energy (electricity) and the amount of cold air produced are equal (ignoring small mechanical loss). As long as you have electricity you can run this cycle over and over again and it is no way related to the amount of energy it took to build the air conditioner, you cannot get that energy back (think of the energy lost in making the metal to build the unit). To get cold air you have to input energy, electricity from either coal or a windmill. Try looking up the first law of thermodynamics and avoid websites pushing pseudo science.

And the point I'm making is...it takes MUCH more energy to MAKE your batteries than you'll EVER get out of them. You can't just FORGET all the energy it took to build your air conditioner...AND you can't just forget ALL the energy it takes to build a battery.

The ONLY reason you CAN think this way...so nonchalantly about "energy" and "work" is that oil and gas are basically free. ONLY with oil/gas do you get back 100X the energy you put into getting and using it.

"A barrel of oil contains about six gigajoules of energy. That’s six billion joules or 1667 kilowatt-hours. No, we don’t have any idea how much that is, either, so let’s think about the equivalent. Sit a reasonably healthy male adult – let’s call him Jim – on an exercise bike wired to an efficient generator, and he can produce 100 watts for you. So after Jim has pedaled an hour he’s produced 100 watt hours of energy, or 1/10 of a kw-hour.

To produce the same energy as that in a gallon of gasoline, 33 kilowatt-hours, Jim would need to pedal 33 X 10 = 330 hours. We need to be legal, of course, so Jim only pedals 40 hours per week. Jim’s desperate, so let’s assume he agrees to take no breaks and never stops working to chat at the water cooler or to check in with his friends on Facebook. He pedals straight through for 40 hours per week. He will have pedaled enough to equal the energy in a gallon of gasoline in a little more than eight weeks. Because Jim’s desperate, he gladly works for minimum wage, so your energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline is a bargain at $6.55 X 330 = $2,194. How’s the price of gasoline lookin’?

Jim likes working for you, so let’s ask him to pedal long enough to produce the same energy as that in a barrel of oil, 1667 kw-hours. Easy to figure. 1667 divided by 1/10, or to say it another way, 1,667 X 10, or 16,667 hours of pedaling. That’s 417 weeks. Jim must love pedaling that bike, because he never takes a vacation. Jim will have pedaled enough to produce the energy in a barrel of oil in 417 divided by 52 = 8.01 years. Congress has cooperated with you during this entire adventure and kept the minimum wage stable at $6.55 per hour, so your energy equivalent from Jim will cost you only $6.55 X 16,667 = $109,169."

"If this is true, oil is essentially “free” energy at the current price. I decided to check it out, as the claim seemed a little hard to believe at first.

After some quick calculations from first principals (see below), I found that for a purely theoretical task, like heating water with a pedal powered generator, the claim is correct. It would indeed take 12 years of laboring to produce the same amount of heat energy as a single barrel of oil."

You CANNOT simply "replace" oil with ANYTHING short of a "Mr Fusion" from Back to the Future.

Originally Posted by Don Baldwin

And the point I'm making is...it takes MUCH more energy to MAKE your batteries than you'll EVER get out of them. You can't just FORGET all the energy it took to build your air conditioner...AND you can't just forget ALL the energy it takes to build a battery.



The ONLY reason you CAN think this way...so nonchalantly about "energy" and "work" is that oil and gas are basically free. ONLY with oil/gas do you get back 100X the energy you put into getting and using it.



"A barrel of oil contains about six gigajoules of energy. That’s six billion joules or 1667 kilowatt-hours. No, we don’t have any idea how much that is, either, so let’s think about the equivalent. Sit a reasonably healthy male adult – let’s call him Jim – on an exercise bike wired to an efficient generator, and he can produce 100 watts for you. So after Jim has pedaled an hour he’s produced 100 watt hours of energy, or 1/10 of a kw-hour.



To produce the same energy as that in a gallon of gasoline, 33 kilowatt-hours, Jim would need to pedal 33 X 10 = 330 hours. We need to be legal, of course, so Jim only pedals 40 hours per week. Jim’s desperate, so let’s assume he agrees to take no breaks and never stops working to chat at the water cooler or to check in with his friends on Facebook. He pedals straight through for 40 hours per week. He will have pedaled enough to equal the energy in a gallon of gasoline in a little more than eight weeks. Because Jim’s desperate, he gladly works for minimum wage, so your energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline is a bargain at $6.55 X 330 = $2,194. How’s the price of gasoline lookin’?



Jim likes working for you, so let’s ask him to pedal long enough to produce the same energy as that in a barrel of oil, 1667 kw-hours. Easy to figure. 1667 divided by 1/10, or to say it another way, 1,667 X 10, or 16,667 hours of pedaling. That’s 417 weeks. Jim must love pedaling that bike, because he never takes a vacation. Jim will have pedaled enough to produce the energy in a barrel of oil in 417 divided by 52 = 8.01 years. Congress has cooperated with you during this entire adventure and kept the minimum wage stable at $6.55 per hour, so your energy equivalent from Jim will cost you only $6.55 X 16,667 = $109,169."



"If this is true, oil is essentially “free” energy at the current price. I decided to check it out, as the claim seemed a little hard to believe at first.



After some quick calculations from first principals (see below), I found that for a purely theoretical task, like heating water with a pedal powered generator, the claim is correct. It would indeed take 12 years of laboring to produce the same amount of heat energy as a single barrel of oil."



You CANNOT simply "replace" oil with ANYTHING short of a "Mr Fusion" from Back to the Future.

I’m enjoying this high school physics class.


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Originally Posted by Guest

I’m enjoying this high school physics class.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Let me try again to explain entropy. You have tons of renewable energy systems in The Villages. They are called solar pool heaters. You are correct it takes oil and it takes energy to refine it, make the plastic and mold the plastic. How much does this energy cost, I don't know but since I know of no subsidies for solar pool heaters I think we can guess it's a small part of the purchase price. Purchase price will include other costs, labor, taxes, profit to name a few. They are renewable energy because they turn sun light into hot water. It would be much simpler to hook you pool up to your hot water heater and use coal derived electricity. I'm sure if you talk to your neighbors they will say the solar heater payed for itself many times over compared to an electric heater. Some day the solar heather will wear out, it will start to leak and not be fixable. You can't get the entropy back out of the system because their is no good way to turn the solar heater back into oil and unlock the energy used to make the plastic. However it is such a insignificant cost you don't care. A solar pool heater and a windmill are the same concept, turn one form of energy into another.

Originally Posted by Guest

Let me try again to explain entropy. You have tons of renewable energy systems in The Villages. They are called solar pool heaters. You are correct it takes oil and it takes energy to refine it, make the plastic and mold the plastic. How much does this energy cost, I don't know but since I know of no subsidies for solar pool heaters I think we can guess it's a small part of the purchase price. Purchase price will include other costs, labor, taxes, profit to name a few. They are renewable energy because they turn sun light into hot water. It would be much simpler to hook you pool up to your hot water heater and use coal derived electricity. I'm sure if you talk to your neighbors they will say the solar heater payed for itself many times over compared to an electric heater. Some day the solar heather will wear out, it will start to leak and not be fixable. You can't get the entropy back out of the system because their is no good way to turn the solar heater back into oil and unlock the energy used to make the plastic. However it is such a insignificant cost you don't care. A solar pool heater and a windmill are the same concept, turn one form of energy into another.

It's NOT a comparison...it's apples to oranges...since when did we add the sun? We are SO far from the original premise. Heating water is comparable to driving an electric car via batteries?

You said batteries can take over for oil...can replace fuel. I said they can't.

So...prove it.

Get me the TOTAL cost...in ENERGY...to build a battery...energy used charging it...and compare that to it's total energy output over it's life.

It won't be CLOSE to the amount of energy used to create it. It's energy negative...there is negative EREI (energy return for energy invested). It takes more energy to make your battery than it will ever produce. So WHY "switch"? You're going to use more energy than you gain.

A barrel of oil contains the equivalent of 8 "man years" of "energy", of "work". One man working continuously, no breaks, no days off, 24/7, for 8 years in ONE barrel of oil.

How much is in your battery? REMEMBER...EVERY CHARGE has energy costs. You say: "I can use the sun to charge the battery...it's free...solar is free".

Au contraire...you MUST factor in the ENERGY COST of your solar charger. The sun's energy is HARDLY free. Solar panels take a lot of energy to mine, refine, manufacture, the electronics need fabrication plants. Copper needs mining, can't use plastic for anything...it's made of oil.

A barrel of oil is $60...a barrel of diesel is $125. How much are your batteries?

Batteries are NOT going to REPLACE fuels.

Oh...another thing...the power grid. It can't handle adding 250 million electric cars. You DO know WHY they want us to conserve electricity? Why everything is "Energy star"? Because there's NOT ENOUGH to go around during peak demands. How do you handle road trips? Everyone can't charge at night.

Originally Posted by Guest

I’m enjoying this high school physics class.


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Trying again. Entropy is a fundamental property of matter. What that means is it is involved in any chemical reaction. If you are making gasoline, paint, steel, plastic or batteries, entropy is involved. There are no special rules for batteries. Because entropy is involved in making steel doesn't mean your car is super expensive.

Originally Posted by Guest

Trying again. Entropy is a fundamental property of matter. What that means is it is involved in any chemical reaction. If you are making gasoline, paint, steel, plastic or batteries, entropy is involved. There are no special rules for batteries. Because entropy is involved in making steel doesn't mean your car is super expensive.

What he doesn't understand is this...

The suns power is locked up in oil. The sun and earth ALREADY DID THE WORK of putting the energy there. We just pump it out and use it...it's basically FREE energy. It's like a never ending "battery"...portable power...basically free.

Creating a battery to supply the SAME amount of energy as that barrel of oil takes a WHOLE LOT OF ENERGY because WE are putting the energy into the BATTERY. And we MUST put in MORE than we get out.

The reason I used entropy was to try to explain that once it's used it's gone...the barrel of oil OR the battery charge. Getting "another charge" of energy is as simple as pumping it out of the ground for oil...but for the battery WE must put that power back in and it is therefore LESS efficient to run vehicles on batteries than fuel.