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Guest 04-24-2009 03:11 PM

The ACLU and the NRA
 
Quote:

Posted by Guest (Post 200371)
Yes, we sure do want to move forward....

"The Obama administration agreed late Thursday to release dozens of photographs depicting alleged abuses at U.S. prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan during the Bush White House."

AND...during the campaign I mentioned the groups that would have power in this administration...one was the ACLU...

"This will constitute visual proof that, unlike the Bush administration's claim, the abuse was not confined to Abu Ghraib and was not aberrational," said Amrit Singh, a lawyer for the ACLU, which reached the agreement as part of a long-running legal battle for documents related to anti-terrorism policies under President George W. Bush."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,4199113.story

The ACLU, ACORN and GreenPeace is NOT the Democratic Party nor the Adminstration, unless you also want to admit that Focus on the Family, the NRA the KKK and Jack Abramoff ARE the Republic Party. The ACLU exercised its Constitutional and Legal right through the FOIA for the release of this information. I'm hearing that somehow that process is un-American.

I would love that the ACLU is part of any Administration, just as the NRA should be safe-guarding the Second Amendment. Both organizations raise, or lower themsleves, at times to ridiculous ideological contortions, but their presence keeps all those "bozos" in government on their toes and the Constitution front and center.

Guest 04-24-2009 06:16 PM

Quote:

Posted by Guest (Post 200463)
The ACLU, ACORN and GreenPeace is NOT the Democratic Party nor the Adminstration, unless you also want to admit that Focus on the Family, the NRA the KKK and Jack Abramoff ARE the Republic Party. The ACLU exercised its Constitutional and Legal right through the FOIA for the release of this information. I'm hearing that somehow that process is un-American.

I would love that the ACLU is part of any Administration, just as the NRA should be safe-guarding the Second Amendment. Both organizations raise, or lower themsleves, at times to ridiculous ideological contortions, but their presence keeps all those "bozos" in government on their toes and the Constitution front and center.

Overall, I tend to agree with you. The more groups that can keep any administration or legislature on the constitutional straight-and-narrow, the better.

FOIA exists for a good reason, and in many ways it's a shame that it took an Act of Congress to open records. However, FOIA is not a perfect solution, as it does cost a lot of money to respond to each and every FOIA requests, and many of them are absolutely inane. Some agencies get tens of thousands of FOIA requests per year for all sorts of information and documents, and they take a lot of time to research and collate. On rare circumstances, FOIA requests require a fee if the size of the document(s) is very large, but many times it is not billed because it can cost more to process fee than the fee is worth.

ACLU is an interesting organization. "Civil Liberties" is narrow or broad in interpretation, depending on the "liberty" involved. Where ACLU has shown excessive bias is its tendency to only be involved in "very left of center" interpretations of what "liberties" are.

As far as linking Republicans and KKK together, that's bogus. KKK is as anarchistic as it gets, and distrusts all parties.

And as far as lobbyists go, the daily parade from K Street to each Congressional Committee Chairperson's office (all Democrat now) makes the March of the Penguins look lightly populated.

Guest 04-24-2009 06:45 PM

Quote:

Posted by Guest (Post 200450)
Again, the question is - what is "torture?" It seems the claim is torture is anything that is "not nice." Again, in comparison to the rest of the world, we use kid glove behavior. What is "right?"

Come on....water boarding is torture. Is a near drowning.

Guest 04-24-2009 07:52 PM

As John McCain said, this whole water boarding/torture issue isn't about who THEY are, it's about who WE are.

Guest 04-24-2009 08:13 PM

These terrorists are nothing but deranged animals who's only purpose is to kill innocent civilians... mostly Americans.

They even take great pride in hacking off the heads of totally innocent people in front of a camera while they scream in agony and fear.

I have no mercy for them whatsoever. If we can get info that can prevent another attack and save lives then I say the CIA should do whatever it takes.

Obama is incompetent and a disgrace.

Guest 04-24-2009 08:24 PM

The point of the thread and the article was....

"But at least until now, the U.S. political system has avoided the spectacle of a new Administration prosecuting its predecessor for policy disagreements. This is what happens in Argentina, Malaysia or Peru, countries where the law is treated merely as an extension of political power."


"So the CIA requests a legal review at a moment of heightened danger, the Justice Department obliges with an exceedingly detailed analysis of the law and interrogation practices -- and, seven years later, Mr. Obama says only the legal advisers who are no longer in government should be investigated. The political convenience of this distinction for Mr. Obama betrays its basic injustice. And by the way, everyone agrees that senior officials, including President Bush, approved these interrogations. Is this President going to put his predecessor in the dock too?"
__________________________________________________ ___________

This is POLITICS of a different dimension than we have seen. Everyone is discussing the waterboarding, etc. and that is EXACTLY what is wanted.

Does nobody see what this could lead to in this country in the future ?
__________________________________________________ _____________

"Just as with the AIG bonuses, he is trying to co-opt his left-wing base by playing to it -- only to encourage it more. Within hours of Mr. Obama's Tuesday comments, Senator Carl Levin piled on with his own accusatory Intelligence Committee report. The demands for a "special counsel" at Justice and a Congressional show trial are louder than ever, and both Europe's left and the U.N. are signaling their desire to file their own charges against former U.S. officials."

"Mr. Obama may think he can soar above all of this, but he'll soon learn otherwise. The Beltway's political energy will focus more on the spectacle of revenge, and less on his agenda. The CIA will have its reputation smeared, and its agents second-guessing themselves. And if there is another terror attack against Americans, Mr. Obama will have set himself up for the argument that his campaign against the Bush policies is partly to blame."
__________________________________________________ ______________

All of the above from the link I provided but no comment on that..simply discourse on what is waterboarding, and torture, which is EXACTLY what the article pointed out !!!
__________________________________________________ ______________

Guest 04-25-2009 08:22 AM

Quote:

Posted by Guest (Post 200490)
Come on....water boarding is torture. Is a near drowning.

I don't know of a situation where anyone "waerboarded" has ever drowned or required medical attention for anything other than hyperventilation from fear. I can remember when I went through "POW Preparation" training, and what we experienced was similar and in many cases worse. Nobody died, nobody required medical attention, and all were shook up pretty well.

Unfortunately, the "pretty please, would you like some tea and crumpets?" approach doesn't work. Before condemning what is a viable physio-psychological interrogation technique, please name an alternative that works. Whether one believes it or not, a lot of study goes into what will or will not work that doesn't result in a "wasted subject." This whole waterboarding scapegoating is just another circumstance where amateurs observe an action, don't understand the why and how, and instantly condemn it because it's "not nice."

I have never seen a situation where a hard-nosed subject possessing vital information responded to "pretty please" techniques. Again, what's the alternative which gets the necessary information so that friendly lives are protected? Whose life is worth forfeiting so that the subject is not made "uncomfortable?"

Guest 04-25-2009 10:06 PM

Investigation is not Prosecution
 
Quote:

Posted by Guest (Post 200366)
Should the next Republican administration decide that the use of drones in Afghanastan to bomb and kill fall in the catagory of war crimes, will the next President then release notes and begin an investigation ?

Well, Actually, I believe if there is just cause to believe that there was a wanton disregard for life, there should be an investigation. The military under the previous administration used unmanned vehicles, as is the current one. These drones appear to have extremely accurate high-resolution photography & high-accuracy targeting, hence you aren't haring any questions about indiscriminate military actions.

On the other hand, the hot potato of who authorized what to whom regarding enhanced torture techniques has become one of deny, deny, deny. Didn't anyone think it odd that the Attorney General of the United States sat before the United States Congress under oath and simply kept saying "I don't recall, I don't recall." . And many more form the Administration did the same thing. Either they represent a serious glandular amomaly that caused Bush executives to suffer from Alzheimer's or they lied. As intelligent adults, which do you think it was?

This kettle of fish was self-brewed. Personally, I believe it arises from the arrogance of power: "No one can tell us what to do or how to do it." This same arrogance may overcome the Obama administration as well. I hope not. But if laws are broken, then investigations are incumbent upon Congress or an independent counsel.

I believe that it is in our natures- conservatives do not like to air dirty laundry, while liberals are often over-eager to do the opposite. And is is a huge mistake to think that Democrats act in one accord. If you notice the Republican votes in the House, they are virtually unanimous against the Democratic majority, whatever the issue. Tom DeLAy, Dick Armey and Newt Gingrich make non apologies for such partisanship.

Democrats, with feckless leadership like Tom Daschle and Harry Reid, were unable to ride herd on their members, and always look disorganized. Republicans run their party like a business; Democrats don't run their party at all. Republicans have problems where the product they are offering is not something the American people desire; Democrats have problems getting a unified message out at all.

Guest 04-26-2009 09:42 AM

The "I don' t recall" syndrome seems to be universal and party-neutral. I heard the same from the latest batch of appointees regarding their tax status as well. It seems to go with all of them, including the elected.

As far as "dirty laundry" is concerned, you and I tend to think alike to a point. I believe the pendulum also swings based on which is the majority party du jour. Then all laundry is perceived as dirty no matter what condition it is.

I don't buy into a categoritization at any level that the military operates any mission with a wanton disregard for life. If anything, the opposite is true. Have there been instances where actions have happened where are far from desired? Sure, and there will always be an occasional one because war is far from pretty, and things happen which are regrettable. That's why there is no group more cautious of committing military assets to resolve a situation than the military leadership itself - folk who know all too well what can and will happen despite the best of intentions. Ironically, it's folk who have never been in combat who historically have been all-too-eager to deploy the military as the "problem solver."

Guest 04-26-2009 03:37 PM

Well said, SteveZ. I don't agree with everything you post but in this case you hit the nail on the head. What would happen if the military had the final word on operations planned by the politicians? Anyone who thinks that senior military does not care about their soldiers/sailors/airmen/Marines, has certainly never been in the military and fought for their country.

Guest 04-26-2009 07:15 PM

Quote:

Posted by Guest (Post 200675)
That's why there is no group more cautious of committing military assets to resolve a situation than the military leadership itself - folk who know all too well what can and will happen despite the best of intentions. Ironically, it's folk who have never been in combat who historically have been all-too-eager to deploy the military as the "problem solver."


Steve.....a tip of the hat and a resounding AMEN!

Guest 04-26-2009 07:23 PM

Quote:

Posted by Guest (Post 200572)
I don't know of a situation where anyone "waerboarded" has ever drowned or required medical attention for anything other than hyperventilation from fear. I can remember when I went through "POW Preparation" training, and what we experienced was similar and in many cases worse. Nobody died, nobody required medical attention, and all were shook up pretty well.

Unfortunately, the "pretty please, would you like some tea and crumpets?" approach doesn't work. Before condemning what is a viable physio-psychological interrogation technique, please name an alternative that works. Whether one believes it or not, a lot of study goes into what will or will not work that doesn't result in a "wasted subject." This whole waterboarding scapegoating is just another circumstance where amateurs observe an action, don't understand the why and how, and instantly condemn it because it's "not nice."

I have never seen a situation where a hard-nosed subject possessing vital information responded to "pretty please" techniques. Again, what's the alternative which gets the necessary information so that friendly lives are protected? Whose life is worth forfeiting so that the subject is not made "uncomfortable?"

Problem is we have held waterboarding as a war crime in previous wars. The Japanese used the tactic as well as the Khmer Rouge. The Regan administration denounced its use.

And now the US has used it. No matter what you say it is at all times wrong.

END OF STORY...........

Guest 04-26-2009 07:34 PM

100%!
 
Steve I agree with you 100% as well.

When the tax issues surrounding Geithner & the others surfaced. there were a whole lot of us complaining form the "other" side that something was rotten in all this. On top of that, Geithner was head of the NY Fed when the initial TARP monies went oout without any strings attached.

No one is indispensble in any position (except a self-employed person, thank you very much), so I found Obama's pursuit of this uncharacteristically odd.

Regarding war and its formulation, I think you have it right on the money. It was one of the anti-war side's most powerful arguments. No one in the Bush Adm. pushing for the war had any military experience whatsoever, and those that did were ignored or even villified as cowards or "with the terrorists."

I think if you had Colin Powell or Schwarzkopf supporting, and coordinating the strategy, people might have supported the long-term efforts. But the reality is, they didn't support the war at all. Everyoe got swept up into propaganda and terrror-baiting/ What is an intelligent person supposed to answer when the President of the United States says, "You are either with us, or with the terrorists," and you know in your heart and brain that "us" is wrong?

Any way, great post!

Guest 04-26-2009 07:42 PM

Quote:

Posted by Guest (Post 200745)
Problem is we have held waterboarding as a war crime in previous wars. The Japanese used the tactic as well as the Khmer Rouge. The Regan administration denounced its use.

And now the US has used it. No matter what you say it is at all times wrong.

END OF STORY...........

The Japanese, Gestapo and KR waterboarding technique was different - at their hands, people died, and regularly. They didn't care if the subject survived.

Guest 04-26-2009 07:44 PM

One thing Steve that I will call you on:

"I don't buy into a categorization at any level that the military operates any mission with a wanton disregard for life."

While I think that's overwhelmingly true, it doesn't necessarily apply when attacking one's enemies. There are also foolish Generals whose pride or stupidity cause massive death. The battle at Gallipoli comes to mind, Napolean's march to Moscow, and the tactics of the Japanese in WWII.

My dad fought in Eisenhower's signal command in WWII. He didn't like to talk about war, but said that if even one shot came from a building as they advanced, the building was toast. Didn't matter who was inside it. It seems like it's a lot easier to pick and choose when you know that the people you are liberating view you as liberators. That was a problem in Viet Nam and has been throughout the Middle East- the "enemy" mixes in with civilians in a most cowardly way, although I bet many of them see no difference between themselves and those civilians.


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