Originally Posted by billethkid

if the loyal supporters of Obama care are so caught up in the need for things like adding 30 or 40 or 50 (or even 70) million more to get coverage and no prior existing condition and keeping kids on insurance until they retire, etc......then why was the alternative of fixing the existing health care system never ever even given the courtesy of being discussed at the time?

It is much better to keep what is known to work and fix what is wrong with it than to dump it out in turn for something NO ONE knows if it will work or what it will cost.

The existing health care system had KNOWN flaws...fraud and cheating. Why were these issue never ever addressed? Because the politicians did not want to risk alienating a potential voting block....just like not fixing illegal immigration.

Do you remember when the budget office was a minority voice cautioning that the costs being used were understated? That disappeared in a hurry. How about the back room deals made personally by Obama to get enough votes to pass the bill?
D you remember when the bill was not moving through fast enough and Obama in his frustration said he didn't care what was in the bill as long as a health care bill got passed? Or do you remember Pelosi while pushing/ramming the bill said let's get this bill passed so we can see what is in it? What ever happened to the promise from Obama to give the American people 72 hours to review what was being proposed? Nothing that what...it did not happen....the usual smiling empty rhetoric.

If you can't relate to any of the above, how about the 2010 election issue that turned the tide for republicans? Of course it was the majority of America stating their displeasure with the health care bill ram job....in the voting booth.

And to answer the question why fixing the existing health care system was not even looked at? Because the promoters would have had to justify incrementally each of the additions they wanted to make. And having to show the costs to add 30, 40, 50 (or even 70) million to the roles they knew would get it blown out of the window.

They knew to show the added costs to keep kids on the insurance or the no prior existing conditions would not have been acceptable.

So I still advocate go back to the plan we have all had for all of our lives.
Fix the fraud and the cheating and the non qualified. Then figure out who they want to add to the health care roles and how much it will cost and then ask the American public if it will be OK to raise their taxes to accommodate the new coverages.

That was not a reasonable proposition because it would have revealed to the American people the horrendous costs that have been smoked over during the push and ram phase by Pelosi/Reid/Obama.

Just a couple simple question for all the supporters who seem to be OK with the new bill (pun intended)......is it OK for your taxes to be raised to what ever level required to make this bill work? Is it OK to cut your existing health care benefits to accommodate the new provisions?
Is it OK to continue with the known fraud, cheating and illegal coverages?

This is not a partisan issue. Can you not see it will be more akin to the plague....it doesn't care what color you are or whether you have an R or D after your name.....YOU WILL BE AFFECTED BY THE UNKNOWN CONTINUED INCREASING COSTS of the new health care law.

Does it not matter?

btk

You make some valid points worthy of discussion. Unfortunately you cannot discuss with anyone who will not learn facts. I have been wrong more in my life than right I think, but at least I try to find out the truth. I do not, nor will I, rely on some political party to educate me on what is going on. These people who come on here with the tweets that they receive or the party line which I suppose they are told they must parrot are allowing someone else to make their decisions.

Does this mean that Obama is always wrong...and Romney always right...NO. Does it mean that Romney is always wrong and Obama is always right...NO. Problem is that you cannot have an adult conversation with people who simply repeat the mantra of their party. We all know our airways will be cluttered with the "message" but this is a forum for discussion and yet people just keep on giving the one line tweets. As in this case, the one liners in noway represent Romney's position or Obama's position.

I have been called a lot of names on here because of my attitude but I come here, believe it or not, to learn. I do not intend to try and change anyone's mind.....but I am hoping that an adult exchange of ideas might illuminate areas where I am misinformed or validate others. I am a big boy....if wrong I will admit it (unfortunately too many times on here)....
but bottom line is you cant discuss it if people insist on being so narrow minded and uninformed.

This is good example. The Ryan budget, complicated as it is, reduced to a one line tweet. A candidate's position which is as complicated, reduced to a misleading and so out of context it is laughable. I often wonder what kind of people are swayed but such simple minded statements ! Both parties do it, so it swings both ways.

Originally Posted by janmcn

Mitt Romney has stated publically that he supports the Paul Ryan Budget. Read the details of that budget which congress has voted for.

This is Romney's platform on Medicare. As I have pointed out before, it DOES include traditional Medicare as an option. Please point out where Romney said he supported each and every detail of the Ryan budget plan - something you and the Democrap talking have inaccurately said. If you are going to ascribe a position, quote the man on that specific point.

Medicare

Here are three links as requested. If you don't like the sources, google Mitt Romney supports Paul Ryan Budget and thousands of links will appear from which to choose. Never considered ABC News to be a left leaning source. Of course, none of these positions are etched in stone as Romney will probably change his position eight to ten times before the election.


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...ts-is-a-fraud/



http://www.politico.com/blogs/burns-...et-118079.html

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolit...ts-crying-foul

Originally Posted by janmcn

Here are three links as requested. If you don't like the sources, google Mitt Romney supports Paul Ryan Budget and thousands of links will appear from which to choose. Never considered ABC News to be a left leaning source. Of course, none of these positions are etched in stone as Romney will probably change his position eight to ten times before the election.


Paul Krugman: Paul Ryan Budget That Romney Supports Is a ‘Fraud’ - ABC News



Romney endorses Ryan budget - POLITICO.com

Romney's Support For Ryan Budget Has Democrats Crying Foul : It's All Politics : NPR

Here is a direct quote from the ABC link you referenced: “He’s for the Ryan plan. He believes it goes in the right direction. The governor has also put forward a plan to reduce spending by $500 billion by the year 2016,” said Fehrnstrom. “In fact, he’s put details on the table about how exactly he would achieve that. So to say he doesn’t have a plan to — a plan to restrain government spending is just untrue.”

This makes it perfectly clear that: (1) Romney believes that the Ryan Plan goes in the right direction, (2) Romney has his own, detailed plan to reduce spending and (3) to say that Romney does not have a plan that differs from the Ryan budget is 'just untrue'.

Given this information can you continue to honestly say that Romney supports the Ryan budget without deviation? Can you honestly say, as you have repeatedly, that Romney wants to covert Medicare to a voucher system or are these just Democrap talking points?

Who knows what Mitt Romney believes? As I said above, he changes his positions frequently. He's for the individual mandate, he's against the individual mandate; he's pro-life, he's pro-choice; he's for gay rights, he's agianst gay rights; he's pro-gun control, he's anti-gun control.

We probably won't know where he stands on issues until right before the election, but in the meantime the media is doing a good job of exposing his offshore bank accounts. In the recent issue of Vanity Fair, it is reported that he is sheltering money in Switzerland, Grand Cayman, and Bermuda, and transferred money to his wife's name the day before he was sworn in as governor without reporting it. Don't think the average voter is going to appreciate all these foreign investments from someone who 'loves America'.

The other thing the media is looking into is why he won't release his tax returns. Other candidates have always released tax returns going back to his father in 1968. Romney wouldn't release them when he ran for the senate in 1994, he wouldn't release them when he ran for governor, he didn't release them when he ran for president in 2008. The only time he released them was when he was being vetted for vice-president by John McCain, and after McCain saw them, he dropped Romney like a hot potato. We can only guess why.

The Boston Globe is also investigating about 100 deals that Bain Capital was involved in while Romney was CEO.

Originally Posted by janmcn

Who knows what Mitt Romney believes? As I said above, he changes his positions frequently. He's for the individual mandate, he's against the individual mandate; he's pro-life, he's pro-choice; he's for gay rights, he's agianst gay rights; he's pro-gun control, he's anti-gun control.

We probably won't know where he stands on issues until right before the election, but in the meantime the media is doing a good job of exposing his offshore bank accounts. In the recent issue of Vanity Fair, it is reported that he is sheltering money in Switzerland, Grand Cayman, and Bermuda, and transferred money to his wife's name the day before he was sworn in as governor without reporting it. Don't think the average voter is going to appreciate all these foreign investments from someone who 'loves America'.

The other thing the media is looking into is why he won't release his tax returns. Other candidates have always released tax returns going back to his father in 1968. Romney wouldn't release them when he ran for the senate in 1994, he wouldn't release them when he ran for governor, he didn't release them when he ran for president in 2008. The only time he released them was when he was being vetted for vice-president by John McCain, and after McCain saw them, he dropped Romney like a hot potato. We can only guess why.

The Boston Globe is also investigating about 100 deals that Bain Capital was involved in while Romney was CEO.

First his investments are in a blind trust.Do you own a 401k?Is it in stocks or mutual fund? Do you know where they invest or have assets?I bet some is off shore.None of what you say as any thing to do with running a country.I could say why are obamas school records all sealed?When Bush ran against gore both of their records were not.It does not matter .What matters is where they each want to take are country.

Originally Posted by janmcn

Who knows what Mitt Romney believes? As I said above, he changes his positions frequently. He's for the individual mandate, he's against the individual mandate; he's pro-life, he's pro-choice; he's for gay rights, he's agianst gay rights; he's pro-gun control, he's anti-gun control.

We probably won't know where he stands on issues until right before the election, but in the meantime the media is doing a good job of exposing his offshore bank accounts. In the recent issue of Vanity Fair, it is reported that he is sheltering money in Switzerland, Grand Cayman, and Bermuda, and transferred money to his wife's name the day before he was sworn in as governor without reporting it. Don't think the average voter is going to appreciate all these foreign investments from someone who 'loves America'.

The other thing the media is looking into is why he won't release his tax returns. Other candidates have always released tax returns going back to his father in 1968. Romney wouldn't release them when he ran for the senate in 1994, he wouldn't release them when he ran for governor, he didn't release them when he ran for president in 2008. The only time he released them was when he was being vetted for vice-president by John McCain, and after McCain saw them, he dropped Romney like a hot potato. We can only guess why.

The Boston Globe is also investigating about 100 deals that Bain Capital was involved in while Romney was CEO.

To quote Jack Nicholson, "You can't handle the truth." You started this discussion on Medicare with the oft repeated lie that Romney wants to turn Medicare into a voucher plan and the other oft repeated lie that Romney supports the Ryan budget down to its finest detail. After being shown evidence that these assertions are both lies, you try to change the subject rather than admit error. If you are actually interested in the truth, you can go to Amazon and download Romney's plan put forth in September 2011. It has not changed.

Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Believe in America: Mitt Romney's Plan for Jobs and Economic Growth

Before we worry about what Romney has or has not released, why don't we start with what our present President has not released? The Passport he used to travel to Pakistan, his entry applications to Columbia and Harvard, the papers he wrote at both Universities, how he reimbursed Reskow for the property given him, etc?

We can deal with the Democrap talking points one at a time, but trying to hide your error by throwing up a smokescreen of BS is neither honest nor honorable.

Thirty years ago 80% of people paid income tax today 51%.Both party's have bought votes by tax breaks.Time to fix this and not by raising taxes to rich only.

Originally Posted by BBQMan

To quote Jack Nicholson, "You can't handle the truth." You started this discussion on Medicare with the oft repeated lie that Romney wants to turn Medicare into a voucher plan and the other oft repeated lie that Romney supports the Ryan budget down to its finest detail. After being shown evidence that these assertions are both lies, you try to change the subject rather than admit error. If you are actually interested in the truth, you can go to Amazon and download Romney's plan put forth in September 2011. It has not changed.

Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Believe in America: Mitt Romney's Plan for Jobs and Economic Growth

Before we worry about what Romney has or has not released, why don't we start with what our present President has not released? The Passport he used to travel to Pakistan, his entry applications to Columbia and Harvard, the papers he wrote at both Universities, how he reimbursed Reskow for the property given him, etc?

We can deal with the Democrap talking points one at a time, but trying to hide your error by throwing up a smokescreen of BS is neither honest nor honorable.

PLEASE Romney, allow them to open the door and use the stuff McCain would not allow once the campaign begins in earnest !