[sounding]

Originally Posted by Fastskiguy

I appreciate the thoughts and I'm not sure why the electric golf cars....and "real" cars for that matter....cost less to run.

I found a blog with some efficiencies of different types of power plants and oil powered plants are between 38-45% efficient.

Between the Poles: Energy Efficiency of Fossil Fuel Power Generation

So I guess my analysis goes as follows....

Oil to make the electricity=40% efficient, then 60-73% of that is efficient in the EV so 24-30% efficient in the car

Where the Energy Goes: Electric Cars

Oil into an ICE car=12-30% efficient

Where the Energy Goes: Gasoline Vehicles

Which suggests an inefficient ICE car vs the EV , the EV is 2X more efficient but in an efficient ICE car it's the same.

I feel like I understand a little more....if we compare the inefficient ICE car then the EV looks pretty good at half of the emissions. But if we compare efficient cars of both types it looks like a wash. Unless I'm missing something...which is entirely possible.

What's your take?

Joe

Donn Dears is the Villages' resident energy expert. Here's one of his many articles excellent ... Can Battery-Powered Vehicles Compete? - Donn Dears LLC

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by Fastskiguy

I appreciate the thoughts and I'm not sure why the electric golf cars....and "real" cars for that matter....cost less to run.

I found a blog with some efficiencies of different types of power plants and oil powered plants are between 38-45% efficient.

Between the Poles: Energy Efficiency of Fossil Fuel Power Generation

So I guess my analysis goes as follows....

Oil to make the electricity=40% efficient, then 60-73% of that is efficient in the EV so 24-30% efficient in the car

Where the Energy Goes: Electric Cars

Oil into an ICE car=12-30% efficient

Where the Energy Goes: Gasoline Vehicles

Which suggests an inefficient ICE car vs the EV , the EV is 2X more efficient but in an efficient ICE car it's the same.

I feel like I understand a little more....if we compare the inefficient ICE car then the EV looks pretty good at half of the emissions. But if we compare efficient cars of both types it looks like a wash. Unless I'm missing something...which is entirely possible.

What's your take?

Joe

It looks the same to me, but that still leaves me with questions. Perhaps a golf cart comparison isn't valid. Fuel for my golf cart costs 1/6 what fuel for my gas cart costs. If the efficiencies are the same then the only savings would come from the cost of fuel for power generation: 1/6 what the same fuel costs me. That might be the case but it really seems like I'm missing something.

[Fastskiguy]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

The graphic shows where energy is "wasted" in both gas and electric vehicles. Some of this is the same - both types of vehicles have auxiliary electrical losses. Some of the losses are specific to the type - electric vehicles have losses in charging the battery while gas engines waste a lot of energy as heat. Overall, there are more losses in gasoline vehicles. According to the chart:

Gasoline vehicles: 12% - 30% efficient
Electric vehicles: 77% - 100% efficient

So let's say a power plant burns gasoline to make electricity. There will certainly be some loss generating that electricity and transporting it to your home. Once there, more than 77% of the energy is efficiently used for moving the vehicle and less than 23% is lost due to inefficiencies.

In order for the two vehicles to be equivalent, in order for them to use the same amount of gasoline, the gasoline powered electrical plant would need to be only 30% efficient. I don't know how efficient power plants are but I assume it is more than 30%.

But let's say the power plant is only 30% efficient and the same amount of gas is used to move both electric vehicles and gas vehicles a certain distance. I know that at $3/gal my gas cart costs six times as much per mile as my electric cart. Does this mean the electric company pays only $0.50/gal for the gas it uses to generate electricity? Probably not.

If the power company can generate electricity at 1/6 the cost of gasoline then some combination of these must be true:
1. The electric company is charged less for gas than I am.
2 The electrical plants are more than 30% efficient so less gas is used to generate the electricity my electric cart requires for the same distance
3. Electricity is generated from more than just gasoline so less gas is used to generate the electricity my electric cart requires for the same distance.

I suspect it is a combination of all three but that #3 is the primary reason. But in any case, I know that running my electric cart is less expensive and if either #2 or #3 are true then I am also using less gas for that electric cart.

Automobiles are different than golf carts and I am only one person but hopefully the savings are even more in automobiles multiplied by thousands of owners.

Originally Posted by sounding

Donn Dears is the Villages' resident energy expert. Here's one of his many articles excellent ... Can Battery-Powered Vehicles Compete? - Donn Dears LLC

I read the article in the link but I don't think it is accurate as far as the advantages and disadvantages of ICE vs EV cars and it doesn't break down the emission differences either. I admit I didn't dig into his other stuff....but I disagree with his reasoning that "EV's can't compete". Tesla Model Y is the 9th most popular vehicle in the US so obviously EV's can compete. Model 3 came in 15th so....again they are competing and beating many ICE cars.

Joe

[Fastskiguy]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

It looks the same to me, but that still leaves me with questions. Perhaps a golf cart comparison isn't valid. Fuel for my golf cart costs 1/6 what fuel for my gas cart costs. If the efficiencies are the same then the only savings would come from the cost of fuel for power generation: 1/6 what the same fuel costs me. That might be the case but it really seems like I'm missing something.

Yeah I agree, they can't be paying 1/6th the price we pay for gas and I don't get it either. I appreciate the discussion though

Joe