[ajbrown]

I can imagine what folks think as they read this: “Who the heck cares about your new batteries”..... I hear you, but if I can just reach one or two people and extend the life of one pack it would be worth it. I am kidding of course, but you never know there may be some info of value for folks new to sparky carts. This thread will be relatively short as the scope is to share my experience breaking the pack in to see if claims of a stronger pack after break in are really true. Here is one example of a break in procedure from a site I trust for information:

http://www.cartsunlimited.net/Batter...n_Methods.html

I am most interested in this line from the document: “by the 12th cycle you will notice a difference in power, speed, and run-time”. A statement like that is why I started the thread. I do not want to notice, I want to document and share. The word notice is very subjective. This question of “battery break-in” has been asked of Trojan Battery and here is what they said when asked if the break in procedure was needed:

This is not necessary. The first step performed on newly purchased batteries is an equalize charge. This is called a refreshening charge. After that, use the batteries normally.

If you have additional comments or questions, please contact me at the information below.
Sincerely,

James M. xxxxxxxxxx
Technical Support Engineer
Trojan Battery Company

There you have it, two recommendations from two camps that are completely opposite. The two camps being battery manufacturer versus cart builders and mechanics. I am going to follow the break in procedure based on the recommendation of many golf cart professionals. Certainly it cannot do any harm, and I can share what I see.

Caveat reader: Keep in mind my experience on golf carts is marinating my two electric club cars and reading. Marinating? My spell checker did that, so I left it as it made me . The word should have been maintaining. Anyway, my point is I am not a professional and none of this should be taken as advice, I am simply documenting my experience during this break in period.

My new set consists of 6 – 8 volt Trojan T890 batteries. I know, I know, only six? I offered to convert the cart to 8 – 6 volt batteries for extended range, but my lovely wife made the decision we did not need that. There is no doubt she envisioned cart parts spewed all over the garage and me turning a two week job into 4 months. After thirty years of marriage she is one wise woman!

Why did I buy Trojan? I read good things about Crown and US Battery and know that some very good professionals swear by them. All of our carts have had Trojan and have performed well for us, so I went with what I know this time.

Why did I buy T890s? The “standard” Trojan 8 volt battery used in TV is the T875. The cost including installation and taxes of the T875 is $625.40. The cost for the same job using T890s is $740.94. That is a substantial uptick in cost, $115.54 or 18%. I honestly cannot tell you the added cost will be worth it and I will not have any way to prove it is worth it in the future. I have no test bed to compare T875 versus T890, so any information would just be my opinion and subjective.

What I can tell you is that the 20 hour amp hour rating for the T890 is 190 versus 170 for the T875. Amp hours (AH) is the true measure of how far you can drive on a charge. The higher the number, the further you can go. Keep in mind folks that have 8 – 6 volt batteries likely use the Trojan T105 and the AH on a T105 is 225 (swweeeeeet). I would guess I could see an extra 4 - 5 miles with the T890s versus the T875. More importantly. I hope that I will get a bit more life from the T890s. Depth of discharge can affect the life of a battery, the deeper the discharge the fewer the life cycles. There is no doubt the State Of Charge on a pack of T890s will be higher than a pack of T875 after driving the same distance. In the end my decision was based on sound reasoning along the lines: “For crying out loud it is only $116 dollars, after a few years you will not remember that” .

In this test I will document the starting voltages before the ride and then I will drive the pack down to about 49.75 volts (75% SOC). At the end of the ride I will let the cart sit for 15 minutes, document the voltage and charge for a future test.

The first thing to notice from the link above is that new batteries are not fully charged. Mine were installed yesterday at before charging I took some voltages:

Pack           49.0 (60%)    

Battery 1     8.26 (70%)
Battery 2     8.25 (70%)
Battery 3     8.24 (70%)
Battery 4     8.07 (50%)
Battery 5     8.18 (60%)
Battery 6     8.25 (70%)

I am not entirely thrilled with the pack voltages I see above. To me these batteries have been on the shelf for a while. I will monitor how they come up to speed in the first few cycles. I am most concerned with battery number four.

For folks less familiar with battery voltages and SOC (state of charge), refer to the chart at the bottom of this page:

http://www.trojanbattery.com/Battery...e/Testing.aspx

It is from this chart that I get the percentage numbers for my pack. I do everything in my power to never let my pack get below 50% SOC. As you can see from my numbers above, I have one battery that has been on a shelf at 50% SOC. Unclear the affect on its life and I will monitor closely.

It also points out how important it is to have a multi meter and understand a bit about your pack. It provides a great baseline for the future to see how the pack is aging.

Will see what happens over the next 2 - 3 weeks....

Alan

[dgammon6]

Hi AJ. Nice to see you are back at bringing us more battery information. My 4 year old T875 batteries finally gave out and I too purchased new T890's instead of trying to convert to 8, 6volt batteries. The reason, too much weight and cost of converting.
I bought the T890 in August, it did take a few charge cycles before I suddenly noticed a difference in power. All went well for a few weeks and I began to notice the cart was slower and lacked power. I started checking individual voltage, pack volts etc. What I found was under a load, one battery would drop from 8.5 volts to 3.7volts. The rest would only drop to about 8.2. I took the battery back and had it replaced under warranty and all is good now. After a full charge my individual volt readings are 8.51. Like you I’m hoping the 890’s will give longer life, I was told by the dealer I should get about 5 to 6 more miles per charge but I really don’t want to run them down far enough to find out.
Sometime I’ll run into you and show you the Datel Digital pack voltmeter.

[ajbrown]

Originally Posted by dgammon6

Hi AJ. Nice to see you are back at bringing us more battery information. My 4 year old T875 batteries finally gave out and I too purchased new T890's instead of trying to convert to 8, 6volt batteries. The reason, too much weight and cost of converting.
I bought the T890 in August, it did take a few charge cycles before I suddenly noticed a difference in power. All went well for a few weeks and I began to notice the cart was slower and lacked power. I started checking individual voltage, pack volts etc. What I found was under a load, one battery would drop from 8.5 volts to 3.7volts. The rest would only drop to about 8.2. I took the battery back and had it replaced under warranty and all is good now. After a full charge my individual volt readings are 8.51. Like you I’m hoping the 890’s will give longer life, I was told by the dealer I should get about 5 to 6 more miles per charge but I really don’t want to run them down far enough to find out.
Sometime I’ll run into you and show you the Datel Digital pack voltmeter.

Glad to hear from you. What a shame on that brand new battery, makes you wonder.... On the other hand it sounds like you handled it great. When is the thread "My experience with a brand new failed battery" coming ?

I take Caly to the "Dog Park of Sanibel" a couple times a week and will contact you out of band to stop by to see the in-dash volt meter. See you then.

PS. I am interested in an in-dash meter and have also been looking at this one, so I could detect a weak battery while driving around. It is a bit pricey for my blood though and may build one with my Dad:

http://www.paktrakr.com/Features.html

[natickdan]

Thanks, AJ, for your post.

I am a new owner of a 2006 club cart ( 4 x 12V battery config. ) and because this is my very first golf cart, I enjoy reading anything that might help me better understand how to best maintain my cart.

[ajbrown]

Originally Posted by natickdan

Thanks, AJ, for your post.

I am a new owner of a 2006 club cart ( 4 x 12V battery config. ) and because this is my very first golf cart, I enjoy reading anything that might help me better understand how to best maintain my cart.

You are more than welcome. TV is certainly unique IMO for golf cart owners, especially folks that own electric. We are lucky that we have a place like TOTV to share and learn together. The Internet has several golf cart expert sites which are invaluable, but I enjoy sharing and hearing electric cart stories from folks that live in TV more than any other site. It amazes me how little I knew about batteries when I got my first cart. It is also amazing how easy it is to learn about batteries. Armed with a multi meter and optionally a hydrometer you can understand, troubleshoot and maintain your pack with ease.

The following web site is great. Read that and you will know what I know and we can learn as we go….. http://www.trojanbattery.com/Tech-Su...chSupport.aspx

Now, if only it was as easy to fix the Patriot’s defensive pack. that pack a few bad cells

[natickdan]

You are spot on about the Pat's and it almost cost them Sunday's game.

My batteries were replaced in 2009 by the previous owner and they are exceeding my expectation with mileage I'm getting, so I'm hoping to get another year or two out of them.

When I am ready to replace the batteries, I'm leaning on sticking to the same 4x12V config as opposed to paying around $1500 for the conversion to a 6x8V config. At that price, I couldn't justify the cost. If the conversion price comes down, I may take another look.

Thanks for the link!

[aljetmet]

Originally Posted by Now, if only it was as easy to fix the Patriot’s defensive [B

pack[/B]. that pack a few bad cells

If the season ended today you know who the Pats would play.

[Barefoot]

Originally Posted by ajbrown

You are more than welcome. TV is certainly unique IMO for golf cart owners, especially folks that own electric. We are lucky that we have a place like TOTV to share and learn together. The Internet has several golf cart expert sites which are invaluable, but I enjoy sharing and hearing electric cart stories from folks that live in TV more than any other site. It amazes me how little I knew about batteries when I got my first cart. It is also amazing how easy it is to learn about batteries. Armed with a multi meter and optionally a hydrometer you can understand, troubleshoot and maintain your pack with ease.

The following web site is great. Read that and you will know what I know and we can learn as we go….. Trojan Battery Company

Now, if only it was as easy to fix the Patriot’s defensive pack. that pack
a few bad cells

I'm hoping that someone can tell me the best place to buy batteries and have them installed. I have a 2007 Columbia Par Car with auto fill. Right now when it is plugged in to charge, it spews acid in the garage and has destroyed our painted floor. Yet the cart works well on a charge, and runs fine.

I'm a girl and I know nothing, da nada, zero. I need to get a professional opinion from someone trustworthy who can tell me if battery replacement will solve my problems.

[renrod]

If your batteries are leaking acid during or after the charge, it sounds like they have been overfilled. The batteries should be filled with water ONLY AFTER a complete charge. Someone can take the autofill system loose one battery at a time and take some water (acid) out using a hydrometer suction. Yes this is not a job for someone who doesn't understand the dangers of working with batteries but it is a simple task, but personal care is needed, and a little knowlege. Then after the batteries have completed a recharge cycle (and let set overnight), use the autofill system to bring batteries to correct level. You should also wash the batteries with lots of water while it is setting over the grass and let dry, don't do it in the garage or on the driveway.

[ajbrown]

Originally Posted by Barefoot

I'm hoping that someone can tell me the best place to buy batteries and have them installed. I have a 2007 Columbia Par Car with auto fill. Right now when it is plugged in to charge, it spews acid in the garage and has destroyed our painted floor. Yet the cart works well on a charge, and runs fine.

I'm a girl and I know nothing, da nada, zero. I need to get a professional opinion from someone trustworthy who can tell me if battery replacement will solve my problems.

I have small rugs (from Market of Marion) under my carts just in case a leak occurs. It is hard to say what is wrong from the post. Did autofill fail? Is one battery weaker and causing others to overcook? It would take come inspecting and voltages to know...

If your batteries are from 2007, they have done pretty well.

For diagnostics I would go with "the one that cannot be named". I have never priced his batteries, but would trust him to tell me what is needed.

For battery replacement I have used Ken Spano and Battery Boys.

[patbbb]

Re: "Why did I buy T890s? The “standard” Trojan 8 volt battery used in TV is the T875. The cost including installation and taxes of the T875 is $625.40. The cost for the same job using T890s is $740.94. That is a substantial uptick in cost, $115.54 or 18%. I honestly cannot tell you the added cost will be worth it and I will not have any way to prove it is worth it in the future. I have no test bed to compare T875 versus T890, so any information would just be my opinion and subjective."

Hopefully enough time has elapsed for an opinion on the T890's you installed (20 months ago?). How many miles do you get vs how many with the old (T875?) ones? Does it look like they will also give longer life. Would you buy them again?
I'm not happy replacing batteries on my Club Cars, DS models, every 3 years but accept that as a fact of life- at least until they prove the two new Trojan models perform as claimed. However, I cannot live with the limited range of 30 miles when new and decreasing to 20 or less over time. If I can't get 30 miles consistently, I'll have to switch to gas but really prefer electric. After reading numerous posts you made, any comments from you on this subject will be greatly appreciated.

[rubicon]

How do you over fill an auto fill?

How do you accurately calculate an increase in distances between new batteries with different brands?

[ajbrown]

Originally Posted by patbbb

Re: "Why did I buy T890s? The “standard” Trojan 8 volt battery used in TV is the T875. The cost including installation and taxes of the T875 is $625.40. The cost for the same job using T890s is $740.94. That is a substantial uptick in cost, $115.54 or 18%. I honestly cannot tell you the added cost will be worth it and I will not have any way to prove it is worth it in the future. I have no test bed to compare T875 versus T890, so any information would just be my opinion and subjective."

Hopefully enough time has elapsed for an opinion on the T890's you installed (20 months ago?). How many miles do you get vs how many with the old (T875?) ones? Does it look like they will also give longer life. Would you buy them again?
I'm not happy replacing batteries on my Club Cars, DS models, every 3 years but accept that as a fact of life- at least until they prove the two new Trojan models perform as claimed. However, I cannot live with the limited range of 30 miles when new and decreasing to 20 or less over time. If I can't get 30 miles consistently, I'll have to switch to gas but really prefer electric. After reading numerous posts you made, any comments from you on this subject will be greatly appreciated.

In summary, I will state that even without data it is about $38/year over the life of the pack for the T890 batteries (3 years) to improve the AH rating from 170 to 190. 10% has to be worth something and if I am wrong this amount will not change my lifestyle. I pay that to play a round of golf.

I look at this thread and realize I never followed up. Shame on me. I start a thread and promise boring data and never come back.

I tried to say in my earlier posts on this thread that I will never be able to ‘know’ if the extra money for the 890s was worth it. Anything I tell you would be subjective as I have not owned a cart with 6-8v batteries where I maintained them. To continue to let you down with my response….. the fact is I am not in the area at the moment and cannot seem to find any data on my test runs with this T890 pack. Right now my carts are blinking away on their respective Battery Minders.

I know I have notepads/napkins somewhere which track my current pack status after playing Lopez, etc. As an update to my OP, I can tell you that Spano did replace that one battery without question as it never came up to 100% SOC.

I do have a couple of general thoughts, which I hope help or can be debated by folks to enlighten us.

The first thing I will say is that I personally have no issue with buying batteries every three years. My napkin calculations say it is about break even with the cost of gas over three years. I think in fact I will get four years out of my 8-6v pack <knocking on wood>.
**** As a seasonal resident my carts only get used 8 1/2 months per year.

You have set the requirement at 30 miles, which I think is very realistic. When I state a requirement like that I mean that I can take my cart for 30 miles and when done the voltage will be greater than 48 volts and they will perform like that for 3 years. IMO this is a very fair requirement and should be attainable with a 6-8v configuration. I am surprised you are seeing 20 miles prior to 3 years? That said… if you will drive a cart 30 miles EVERY day you may be pushing the limits and need to look at 8-6vs. **** Solar may also be an option, if you read this site, you must be aware it is being worked on, time will tell.

<soapbox>

Some percentage of people that buy electric have no idea of their range requirements and have no idea how deeply they discharge the pack daily which is an important part of maintenance. They buy a Club Car Precedent with 4-12v pack and drive it until dead 4 days a week. After the batteries fail in 24 months they say “electric s*cks”. They simply bought the wrong electric cart for their requirements.

</soapbox>

I looked around for things I have posted before hoping to find anything to help. In this thread My story of three year old batteries and Lifesaver I see I was getting 26 miles out of a 3year old pack and based on the voltage I reported could have easily gotten to 30+. This was NOT my pack, so I cannot talk to how it was maintained.

I also have a document where I was comparing a set of T890s to a set of T105s in a cart after I converted it to carry 8-6v batteries. The T890s (Dad’s) were at least 2 1/2 years old and went 36 miles.

I apologize I have no better data. I know I did a test run last year on the T890s to evaluate the pack before warranty would run out and went 40 miles without issue. I will do a run in the fall if that helps you.

/*

Important: When I talk about range in my tests, I am talking about how far I can go without discharging pack more that 50%

*/

[ajbrown]

Originally Posted by rubicon

How do you over fill an auto fill?

How do you accurately calculate an increase in distances between new batteries with different brands?

It has yet to happen to me, but I have read of valves sticking with autofill systems. I would think you would see overfill happening if you are watching, but again, I have yet to experience it. This thread has some very experienced folks chatting about this subject:

Battery Watering Systems

I am not sure what you are asking with your second question. If you are asking how to compare when selecting a battery? Unless someone knows of a better way, I think it is common to simply use the 20AH rating. The bigger the number the better the range, looking at Trojan:

4-12V: 150
6-8V (T875): 170
6-8V(T890): 190
8-6V(T105): 225

[Frozen1]

If it's a 2007, I'd wager you have the old algorithm set in your charger. If the batteries are the original red ones, instead of being at Alg #4, which was used back then, they should be changed to #11 which gives it a lower finishing charge so you don't get that spewing affect.