[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

The V.A. works fine. Social Security works fine. Our National Defense is pretty good. The national parks system is pretty good.

Social Security is well on the way to not being able to pay out what our kids are putting in.

National Defense is great at overspending and giving our troops things they have not asked for.

VA seems to be working better these days but some years ago took forever for veterans to be served.

[NAB20]

Good point. But they probably don't feel that way. They usually don't want to help anyone, but really want them to pay for their "sins." In actuality, if people had only children they could afford, many of us would not even be here. However, we are at the point of paying this type of subsidy through our taxes or through buying goods and services at a price that would support a decent wage that allows people to live decently without a subsidy. Again, many people still choose neither. All the while, the rich get richer and the inequities get greater.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Byte1

I agree with the poster that mentioned a "flat tax" for everyone, with no tax breaks. And that is including those making minimum wages. Minimum wages was never supposed to be a full-time job and career for family earners. It was meant for part-time, mostly high school kids so they could get some job experience. Nuff said on that.
On the other hand, welfare should be earned/EARNED. Everyone that accepts welfare should have to work for it. States/counties could have jobs set up such as road work, landscaping, trash removal, janitor, etc. and babysitting for gov workers needing childcare, filing, mailing, courier, maid work, etc. Even simple little jobs would give the welfare recipient some sense of respect. A form of work/job camp, only not centralized. Of course, housing could be provided for those needing temp housing along with the temp job for their welfare. Anyone wishing to further or progress could be allowed job hunting time (with proof) and/or job training or education. I would mandate this kind of action for anyone requesting welfare. Almost everyone could provide some useful trade for their gov hand-out. Why do people think that it is heartless to require an effort or work related trade for gov assistance? Very few recipients actually can not physically earn their gov assistance.

Y'all really really REALLY need to stop spreading this urban legend. I get that any of you who are old enough to remember what the original point of minimum wage is, are too old to remember. I get that the rest of you wouldn't have known, unless you were actually paying attention in school and maybe you have forgotten your lessons then too. It probably wasn't all that important at the time. I get that.

But I don't get why people would make these claims that are EASILY debunked, that have never been true, have never had any truth to them at all.

The National minimum wage was created in 1938 by Congress under the Fair Labor Act. It was implemented to protect workers in the labor force and provide a LIVING WAGE. That is *exactly* what was intended by it when it was created. That was its #1 purpose.

That continued to be the purpose for a couple of decades, until it ceased to keep up with inflation, and minimum wage workers became unable to live on their minimum wage. This country stopped even bothering to try and catch up for a very long time, and now we're in the situation we're in.

Sources:

Minimum Wage | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute
Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938: Maximum Struggle for a Minimum Wage | U.S. Department of Labor
Can a Family Survive on the U.S. Minimum Wage?
Minimum Wage: Definition, History, Pros, Cons, Purpose

There are dozens of other sources, and Forbes Magazine, that financial bastion of capitalistic goodness, has figured that if you account for general inflation and the general rise in wages over time, minimum wage, compared to the 25-cents/hour it was in 1938, would be $8.86/hour, not the $7.25/hour it is currently.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

You are retired, right? The thinking behind that analysis is truly frightening.

If the Govt. had chosen to continue to pay $600/week then would you now be advocating a $30/hour minimum wage?

And as others have pointed out, enjoy that $20 burger.

Once a $25 minimum wage was paid a hamburger MIGHT (?) go up by a dollar, like from $5 to $6. It is up to ownership and their managers to keep the price about the same by either greater efficiency, accepting a lower profit margin, lowering other costs, or going out of business - and allowing a MORE efficient ownership to take over. Or, perhaps, the customer might be willing to pay more, but that is the least likely.

There has NOT been a minimum wage increase in about 30 years - meanwhile, the GNP and efficiency soared. The rich and the ownership class took advantage of no unions and legal and illegal immigration to screw over US workers. They employed an army of lobbyists and controlled the Chamber of Commerce in an effort to prevent worker satisfaction for at least the last 30 years.

[NoMoSno]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

Once a $25 minimum wage was paid a hamburger MIGHT (?) go up by a dollar, like from $5 to $6. It is up to ownership and their managers to keep the price about the same by either greater efficiency, accepting a lower profit margin, lowering other costs, or going out of business - and allowing a MORE efficient ownership to take over. Or, perhaps, the customer might be willing to pay more, but that is the least likely.

There has NOT been a minimum wage increase in about 30 years - meanwhile, the GNP and efficiency soared. The rich and the ownership class took advantage of no unions and legal and illegal immigration to screw over US workers. They employed an army of lobbyists and controlled the Chamber of Commerce in an effort to prevent worker satisfaction for at least the last 30 years.

NO minimum wage increase in 30 years?
Try 12:
History of Federal Minimum Wage Rates Under the Fair Labor Standards Act, 1938 - 2009 | U.S. Department of Labor

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

Y'all really really REALLY need to stop spreading this urban legend. I get that any of you who are old enough to remember what the original point of minimum wage is, are too old to remember. I get that the rest of you wouldn't have known, unless you were actually paying attention in school and maybe you have forgotten your lessons then too. It probably wasn't all that important at the time. I get that.

But I don't get why people would make these claims that are EASILY debunked, that have never been true, have never had any truth to them at all.

The National minimum wage was created in 1938 by Congress under the Fair Labor Act. It was implemented to protect workers in the labor force and provide a LIVING WAGE. That is *exactly* what was intended by it when it was created. That was its #1 purpose.

That continued to be the purpose for a couple of decades, until it ceased to keep up with inflation, and minimum wage workers became unable to live on their minimum wage. This country stopped even bothering to try and catch up for a very long time, and now we're in the situation we're in.

Sources:

Minimum Wage | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute
Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938: Maximum Struggle for a Minimum Wage | U.S. Department of Labor
Can a Family Survive on the U.S. Minimum Wage?
Minimum Wage: Definition, History, Pros, Cons, Purpose

There are dozens of other sources, and Forbes Magazine, that financial bastion of capitalistic goodness, has figured that if you account for general inflation and the general rise in wages over time, minimum wage, compared to the 25-cents/hour it was in 1938, would be $8.86/hour, not the $7.25/hour it is currently.

Around 1975 increasing inflation started to prevent REAL wages from increasing until today we have the socially unstable (possibly dangerous and a nod to totalitarian) situation where the US has the greatest Wealth Disparity in the free world. Sad and dangerous.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by NoMoSno

NO minimum wage increase in 30 years?
Try 12:
History of Federal Minimum Wage Rates Under the Fair Labor Standards Act, 1938 - 2009 | U.S. Department of Labor

NOT true. Inflation must be taken into account, which eliminated ALL WAGE increase from about 1975 until today. It is sometimes called constant dollars by economists. They look at what number of dollars had the same buying power for each year. There are tables to help people calculate that out in MOST every economics book. It is taught in econ 101.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

Around 1975 increasing inflation started to prevent REAL wages from increasing until today we have the socially unstable (possibly dangerous and a nod to totalitarian) situation where the US has the greatest Wealth Disparity in the free world. Sad and dangerous.

Yeah, the dangerous situation began when two parent homes disappeared, the public tit appeared and illegal immigration went unchecked. Some people worked and saved and the others took the get by path.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by NAB20

Good point. But they probably don't feel that way. They usually don't want to help anyone, but really want them to pay for their "sins." In actuality, if people had only children they could afford, many of us would not even be here. However, we are at the point of paying this type of subsidy through our taxes or through buying goods and services at a price that would support a decent wage that allows people to live decently without a subsidy. Again, many people still choose neither. All the while, the rich get richer and the inequities get greater.

I wonder if you skim the Gates, Zuckerburgs, Bezos types and politicians off the top of the “rich and wealthy”, how many truly wealthy would be left.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Boomer

If this country does not get moderates in power, we (well, actually our children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren) are going to have a mess of a country — from all directions.

On one side, hate and conspiracy theories and re-writing history (Orwellian-style) are ruling people I thought were normal, people I have known all my life. I think there is neuroscience behind some of this that has converted the thought processes of the susceptible.

The common denominator is that they tune into screens that constantly hammer the emotional part of their brains with fear, hate, paranoia, urgency — negative emotions — until obsession kicks in and takes over their lives, launching them into a frenzied alternative universe where lies are truth and truth is lies — and, sadly, often poisoning longterm relationships.

Btw, the use of references to the novel 1984 that we so often see thrown around by conspiracy theorists and their ilk is a bassakwards reference. In Orwell’s book, there are 4 Ministries with titles that mean the opposite. The Ministry of Truth is actually the department of propaganda. Orwell must be spinning in his grave to see his dystopian novel used as part of the current propaganda machine. Maybe they should actually read the book — won’t happen though.

On the other side, I am seeing things I do not understand, and I keep thinking I must be missing something. This child credit thing is one of those things.

If the government wants to actually do something to lift children from poverty, the money would be more effectively spent by setting up and staffing well-run daycares and pre-schools for working parents whose earning ability does not allow them to get ahead — but they are going to work. This would not only make childcare accessible for lower-earning working families, but it would give the children a good start on learning.

I also think there should be more of an incentive for corporations to set up on-site childcare to be available for working women. I know some employers have this, but not enough do. I think this could be an excellent use of tax incentives for employers.

As I said, I do not understand this child credit thing, but my first thought is that it is naive. Actual planning time and money could be far better spent on an overall plan to help working parents with an ongoing investment in facilities and staffing for childcare and early education.

If such a thing were to actually happen on a nationwide scale, all of our society would benefit. Doling out money to individuals looks to me like a naive attempt at a quick-fix that might work for a percentage of families, but a lot of it will fall through the cracks — as do so many of our nation’s children.

I am truly and deeply concerned that hate and lies are winning the fight for the Soul of America. One side has morphed into something monstrous that will devour us. But the naïveté on the other side needs to be turned into the planning of real, longterm solutions. But as people go, I will take decency and caring any day — although they need to moderate and take time to think through some of the plans for how to really help children for generations to come.
.
If you have read this, you have seen what a moderate looks like — albeit a socially, slightly left-leaning moderate with a head for money and a strong opinion on how the government could spend wisely to do some actual good.

Boomer — a for-real moderate (an endangered species)

Very good post.

Wisdom and government seldom go together though.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

Once a $25 minimum wage was paid a hamburger MIGHT (?) go up by a dollar, like from $5 to $6. It is up to ownership and their managers to keep the price about the same by either greater efficiency, accepting a lower profit margin, lowering other costs, or going out of business - and allowing a MORE efficient ownership to take over. Or, perhaps, the customer might be willing to pay more, but that is the least likely.

There has NOT been a minimum wage increase in about 30 years - meanwhile, the GNP and efficiency soared. The rich and the ownership class took advantage of no unions and legal and illegal immigration to screw over US workers. They employed an army of lobbyists and controlled the Chamber of Commerce in an effort to prevent worker satisfaction for at least the last 30 years.

Like in Europe? I’d Austria meal averages around 100 bucks for tourist with European style pay more aNd get less. If minimum was was 25 bucks that hamburger would 30 bucks or more. One way to lean out American’s

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

Y'all really really REALLY need to stop spreading this urban legend. I get that any of you who are old enough to remember what the original point of minimum wage is, are too old to remember. I get that the rest of you wouldn't have known, unless you were actually paying attention in school and maybe you have forgotten your lessons then too. It probably wasn't all that important at the time. I get that.

But I don't get why people would make these claims that are EASILY debunked, that have never been true, have never had any truth to them at all.

The National minimum wage was created in 1938 by Congress under the Fair Labor Act. It was implemented to protect workers in the labor force and provide a LIVING WAGE. That is *exactly* what was intended by it when it was created. That was its #1 purpose.

That continued to be the purpose for a couple of decades, until it ceased to keep up with inflation, and minimum wage workers became unable to live on their minimum wage. This country stopped even bothering to try and catch up for a very long time, and now we're in the situation we're in.

Sources:

Minimum Wage | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute
Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938: Maximum Struggle for a Minimum Wage | U.S. Department of Labor
Can a Family Survive on the U.S. Minimum Wage?
Minimum Wage: Definition, History, Pros, Cons, Purpose

There are dozens of other sources, and Forbes Magazine, that financial bastion of capitalistic goodness, has figured that if you account for general inflation and the general rise in wages over time, minimum wage, compared to the 25-cents/hour it was in 1938, would be $8.86/hour, not the $7.25/hour it is currently.

Funny how that minimum wage act of 1938 didn’t affect me at 14 when I worked in grocery store for 60 cents hour.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

A flat tax is an idea thrown around originally by the super-rich. With a flat tax, we would have an even greater wealth disparity than we do now. it is the WORST idea ever in economics. About as bad and laughable as the "trickle-down" theory. The only "trickling" would be from the rich's trickler to the heads of the poor.

You’re opinion, that’s it. Flat tax will never happen. The rich you talk about don’t pay their fair share under the exemption tax credit system we have, middle class has the biggest tax burden. Nobody that makes laws on taxes cares about middle class. Remember the famous tax cheat or all time said. My secretary pays more taxes than I do. The secretary don’t have army of tax cheat lawyers getting her out of her fair share does she cause the tax laws wasn’t written with her in mind.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

That's why money should NEVER be denied to primary school and early child development. Better schools make better citizens and reduce the cost of incarceration.

Not really, if you’re bad egg education not going to make difference.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

Exactly. Bank of America decided to pay their employees $25 / hour and now they have zero problem attracting GOOD employees. That tells me that the minimum wage should be between $20 and $25 in today's era of HIGH GNP and massive computer power.

Good qualified employees.