[Trayderjoe]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

No, I was addressing the other 50% of the posters.

Do you really think I am suggesting JUST more gun controls?

Other than you, show posts of people making suggestions (other than taking away cars)

Unfortunately that was not clear in the original reply.

First please show where it is illegal to fire a firearm while intoxicated. It IS illegal to drive while intoxicated. It is illegal to drive faster than the posted speed limit, show laws limiting how fast you can fire your weapon, or where. Try driving on the court house lawn? You will be towed, try walk onto the Capital steps, and waving your guns, you will be applauded. I think you get the point.

Not sure what this has to do with my post, seems to "muddy the waters"

Let's take the one that pertains to this thread - Texas: How to Apply for a Texas Driver License | Department of Public Safety

To get a Drivers license:

The Department issues driver licenses valid for up to eight years to Texas residents 18 years of age and older. The Texas Driver’s Handbook is available online to help you qualify for a Texas driver license. You will need to provide proof of the following to apply for a driver license:

* U.S. Citizenship or, if you are not a U.S. Citizen, evidence of lawful presence
* Texas Residency
* Identity, and
* Social Security Number
* Evidence of Texas Vehicle Registration* for each vehicle you own. Registration must be current. Visit Texas DMV vehicle registration for more information (New Residents who are surrendering an out-of-state driver license only)
* Proof of Insurance* for each vehicle you own
* If you do not own a vehicle, you will sign a statement affirming this.

Additionally, you will need to provide evidence of completion of:

* Impact Texas Driver (ITD) if you will be taking a driving test for the issuance of your driver license**
* A six-hour adult Driver Education course, if you are 18 through 24 years of age (Does not apply to new residents who are 18 years of age or older and surrendering a valid, unexpired out-of-state driver license)
* Once you have gathered the necessary documents and completed the required courses, you will need to do the following:

* Complete the driver license application before arriving at your local office (This form is also available at all driver license offices).
* Make an appointment at a driver license office.
* Provide the following documentation to the license and permit specialist:
* Application for the issuance of a driver license
* U.S. Citizenship or, if you are not a U.S. Citizen, evidence of lawful presence
* Identity, and
* Social Security Number
* Provide your signature for DL or ID.
* Provide your thumbprints.
* Have your picture taken.
* Pay the application fee.
* Pass the vision exam.
* Take and pass the knowledge and driving tests. You may complete the testing requirements at the DL office by scheduling an appointment online or through a Third Party provider. Read about testing in other languages and driving test requirements.

Now, what are the requirements to buy a gun in Texas? Buying - Gun Laws - Guides at Texas State Law Library

I won't copy it here, because almost all that is there are links to explain who CAN NOT purchase a gun (felons, etc) but the only topic listing a requirement is AGE. One Retirement - AGE. Nothing about things you have to do - testing, training, demonstrating competence, etc etc etc. (they left off affording it)

Compare the two. Obviously, Texas is very afraid of people driving on their streets, but if you want to kill children - no so hard. If you want, you can eliminate any duplicates from the two lists (US Citizenship, Texas resident, etc.) Drivers license still wins by a mile.

Well not quite. In order to purchase a firearm in Texas, you need either a driver's license or a Texas State ID (link) for which you need proof of the following:

U.S. Citizenship or, if you are not a U.S. Citizen, evidence of lawful presence.
Texas Residency
Identity and
Social Security Number

So BEFORE you can even buy a gun in Texas, you have to either meet the requirements of a driver's license or have lawfully obtained a Texas State ID. THEN you still need to pass a FEDERALLY required background check if purchasing from a gun dealer as this killer did. Oh and by the way, my original request still stands, please provide proof that it is easier to buy a gun legally than to get a driver's license "in many states". The Texas example doesn't work.

But, I don't know about any one else, but I can walk and chew gum at the same time. So, why not implement mitigation techniques while we try to determine the WHY so we can solve it. Why not look for low hanging fruit that we can all agree on and implement while the brainiacs look for how to solve societies cultural issues. And yes, but is SOMETHING is broken in the US, since this is a uniquely US problem.

Interesting. I too have been trained in multiple methodologies such as Root Cause Analysis and Six Sigma. What is consistent is identifying the problem and sustainable fixes. Handling "low hanging fruit" is easy in a company for example, where the "bosses" have the ability to shutdown an operation temporarily while these interim fixes are implemented. However, we are not talking about a company with a somewhat limited set of stakeholders but a country with so many more different stakeholders.

[Trayderjoe]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

True, and I think Universal background checks could help.

In addition, the doctor patient confidentiality should be considered, and healthcare professionals should be required to check a box saying, "recommended for gun purchase" or "not recommended for gun purchase". That keeps the why private, but could help with background checks. Of course, that has problems too - like a doctor doesn't want ANYONE to get guns, or a doctor wants EVERYONE to get guns. etc. etc. etc.

No solution is perfect.

Now here is a concrete proposal that could move forward. Will there be kinks to iron it out? Yes, but at least it is a recommendation that can be moved forward. Whether it becomes functional or not is irrelevant to the concept of proposing a specific solution versus repeating the mantra.

[chuckpedrey]

American was founded on a Christian ethnic. It is the Christian Bible that the founding fathers based their lives on.

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe

Unfortunately that was not clear in the original reply.

Sorry

Not sure what this has to do with my post, seems to "muddy the waters"

Our exchange was about difficulty in obtaining a drivers license vs a gun. Driving restrictions after you have the license are also more strict than a firearm.

Well not quite. In order to purchase a firearm in Texas, you need either a driver's license or a Texas State ID (link) for which you need proof of the following:

U.S. Citizenship or, if you are not a U.S. Citizen, evidence of lawful presence.
Texas Residency
Identity and
Social Security Number

So BEFORE you can even buy a gun in Texas, you have to either meet the requirements of a driver's license or have lawfully obtained a Texas State ID. THEN you still need to pass a FEDERALLY required background check. Oh and by the way, my original request still stands, please provide proof that it is easier to buy a gun legally than to get a driver's license "in many states". The Texas example doesn't work.

You left out my saying in my post that you were retired to provide ID, etc. In other words sates define who CAN NOT buy a gun, but many place no requirements other than things that mean you are NOT being allowed.

My post referenced Texas requirements for gun purchase as an example of one of the many you requested. And you left out/ignored the numerous testing, training and demonstrations of competency I listed, which does show it is much "harder" to get a gun than a drivers license, which is exactly what you asked for and then ignored.

As to proving many states, I used a state which is pertinent to THIS conversation as an example - Texas, I will leave it up to you to find the others that have more requirements.

Hint: I don't know of a single state that doesn't require some testing to obtain a drivers license - competency, vision, etc. - I know some states that require competency testing to buy a gun, but I don't think all do. All states require some kind of testing to prove driving knowledge (some will accept other states license as proof). So, I feel safe in suggesting it will not be hard to find that proof. I often get PMs complaining about too many references/links and too long posts. So, have fun, and if you go to the trouble to check all states and find no others or even fewer than half, I would be very interested. (But I am sure that will not happen).

I too have been trained in multiple methodologies such as Root Cause Analysis and Six Sigma. What is consistent is identifying the problem and sustainable fixes. Handling "low hanging fruit" is easy in a company for example, where the "bosses" have the ability to shutdown an operation temporarily while these interim fixes are implemented. However, we are not talking about a company with a somewhat limited set of stakeholders but a country with so many more different stakeholders.

I agree root cause is vital and in complex situations can take a long time to determine.

Many of the companies I worked for has issues with production lines that would cost the company hundreds of thousands of dollars per hour to shut down and so that was NOT an option unless lives were at risk. It is possible to find and implement temporary "work arounds" or patches on live systems.

Are you suggesting we do nothing and just accept the death toll that is growing almost weekly for the past twenty years until we can determine with some level of certainty the root cause? I hope not.

And let me close this post bye saying thank you for the civil discourse and pertinent comments and questions. If more would do this we could make progress. It is possible, and you sir are proof.

[Sarah_W]

Originally Posted by aldeana

Isn't it hypocritical and ironic that no guns will be allowed at the NRA event this week? Don't you wish that those precautions were in place at every supermarket, church, movie theater, etc?
How about those privileged few (mostly big name politicians) who walk around with a security detail?

Not hypocritical and not surprising whenever there is a speaker who has a Secret Service detail they will require no guns allowed.

Any business can put a sign on their door that says no guns allowed and it has to be honored. I'm not sure the point of that considering that guns are not allowed on school grounds and mass murders don't obey those requirements and kill innocent children. Signs will not stop mass shootings.

[Johnsocat]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

The point is to compare the US gun violence to other countries' gun violence. That's the important point.

Only if you are researching where you want to live. Our country is unique. Apples to oranges...

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by chuckpedrey

American was founded on a Christian ethnic. It is the Christian Bible that the founding fathers based their lives on.

Sorry this is also a myth.

Many of the "founding fathers" were atheists. And the theists were often (mostly?) Puritans (Calvinist's and was based on the Holiness movement) that would never consider what we consider Christians to be Christians today. Women were little more than possessions, etc. Maybe you would like to start "testing" women charged with witch craft? They came here specifically to escape the Church of Englands persecution, and they could persecute anyone not toeing the line to their beliefs.

And if you want Christian beliefs in government, lets start with feeding the poor, giving housing to the homeless, forgiving those that transgress against us, not killing our enemies. You know all those pesky things Jesus told us to do, but evangelicals don't want to do, and instead refer back to the old testament and repeatedly quote the "thous shall nots" and not Jesus saying "thou shalt.

And another point, would you clarifying which Bible you want to make law, and which interpretation of it? Since there are over 200 Christian denominations in the US alone, and over 45,000 in the world.

And does the Pope get a seat in the Christian White House? After all, there are 1.5 billion Catholics and only maybe a 1/2 million Protestants (divided up between 45,000 different interpretations.)

So, I am just. curious, is it YOUR religion you want made law?

Now, could we get back to guns being used to kill children in class rooms for the past 20 years?

"Christians" make up in total about 20% of the worlds population. Yet, some how the other 80% of the world's population are not murdering their children regularly in schools. There are always the occasional wacko dictator, or rebels, or whatever that kills children or others. But, Only in America do we appear to endorse muting children in schools regularly. I say appear, since we have had 20 years to do something about it, and so far we can't agree on anything. 20 years...

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by Johnsocat

Only if you are researching where you want to live. Our country is unique. Apples to oranges...

Uh? Huh?

No, considering ALL other countries in the world. The US is the ONLY country that regularly (every week now?) allows children to be murdered while in class for the past 20 years. Apples and Apples.

Australia had one, back in the 1990's, they banned guns. It didn't solve ALL the gun violence, but they don't have a recurring problem with children being murdered in class. (I don't think they have had ANY since that one).

Great Britain had one in 1996, they passed laws banning most guns, guess what, no more mass murders in schools.

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by Sarah_W

Not hypocritical and not surprising whenever there is a speaker who has a Secret Service detail they will require no guns allowed.

Any business can put a sign on their door that says no guns allowed and it has to be honored. I'm not sure the point of that considering that guns are not allowed on school grounds and mass murders don't obey those requirements and kill innocent children. Signs will not stop mass shootings.

Uh, yes hypocritical, since we are told repeatedly in every one of these conversations that ALL OF THE murders of children take place in "gun free zones" - so, being gun free obviously will not stop shooters that want to shoot.

So, I respectfully disagree with you. For the Organization that pushes for NO restrictions on carrying guns ANYWHERE, to NOT allow guns while they discuss GUNS ANYWHERE is the perfect example of hypocrisy. (BTW, I thought the NRA was pushing for guns in colleges - schools. Another example of gun anywhere except at our meeting.

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe

Now here is a concrete proposal that could move forward. Will there be kinks to iron it out? Yes, but at least it is a recommendation that can be moved forward. Whether it becomes functional or not is irrelevant to the concept of proposing a specific solution versus repeating the mantra.

Thank you

[dewilson58]

Oh ME oh my.

[Johnsocat]

And when/if our government becomes truly tyrannical, have fun defending yourself with your five round clips and muzzle loaders...
The 2nd ammendment was ratified for a REASON. It specifically states that the right to bear Arms "shall not be infringed". The REASON is not to hunt deer, it is to defend Americans against it's own government. Yet, our government's (Fed, State and Local) HAVE "infringed" by creating gun laws.
We are NOT like Australia, Sweden, Germany, France, the UK or any other country. We have fought for, and died for, the freedoms granted us as Americans in our Constitution. The same Constitution our Military and Federally elected public servants swear to protect.
Guns and their availability are NOT the problem. Our morals, values and ethics are. Our country looks more and more like Sodom and Gamora everyday. Our family structures are broken, single parents, 2 working parents with latchkey kids.... very little time to instill traditional American values in those kids. Instead they are getting those values from a government school system which teaches them a political agenda and "wokeness". Participation trophies instead of good sportsmanship. Test teaching, which eliminates critical thinking skills. And more recently Critical Race Theory and Gender fluidity and identification. Politicians on your evening news have been incredibly nasty in their words, even suggesting people to get in other people's faces, kick them out of your places of business, citing half of Americans as deplorable, super predators, Nazis, dirty Walmart shoppers, homophobic, xenophobic, and many other names. Even talking about beating up the President "behind the barn". One even threatened a Supreme Court Justice saying he "won't know what hit him."
Is it any wonder (or coincidence) these kids are shooting up the schools?
You want to "fix" this problem? Find the root of the problem. HINT : it is NOT the guns nor gun availibility.

[Johnsocat]

Check out Chicago. Strict gun law, high gun violence...

[blueash]

Originally Posted by chuckpedrey

American was founded on a Christian ethnic. It is the Christian Bible that the founding fathers based their lives on.

That is an insidiously wrong statement pushed by some of those of the Christian faith. This country was founded by a bunch of nearly agnostic men who wanted financial and political control over this territory. They had absolutely no disagreement with England over theological concerns and in fact were far LESS religious than the monarchy which claimed to derive its legitimacy from Jesus et al.

Jefferson removed all Jesus is God references from his Bible, actually cut those passages out with a knife. Our Constitution has exactly two references to religion and both strongly state that religious affiliation has no place in our governance.

The ethic of the founders was not rigid evangelical Christianity is was instead based on liberal ideology of natural rights as proposed by Locke and others. The founders were so against religious dogma determining United States governance that they made sure the Post Office, one of the few functions of the Federal Government at the time, operated on Sunday, you know the Christian day of rest and prayer on which you shall refrain from work and keep it holy, the Post Office functioned on Sunday the same as any other day of the week.

" In 1828, the Kentucky Senator Richard M. Johnson, chairman of the Senate Committee on the Post Office and Post Roads and a devout Baptist, declared any federal attempt to give preference to the Christian Sabbath to be unconstitutional. The line between church and state when it came to Sunday mail delivery, he argued, "cannot be too strongly drawn." "

No, what has happened is that once again the real history of the US is being subverted by many who wish to believe that what they now hold true was held true in the 18th century.
Thomas Paine called Christianity a fable. Many were simply Deists, a religious belief that a God does exist but that he [or she] is not actively involved in our day to day life and that "human experience and rationality—rather than religious dogma and mystery—determine the validity of human beliefs."

That was overwhelmingly the ethic of our founders and where it overlapped with the liberal Protestantism of the day, that was ok. Real history. You can look it up.

[jebartle]

LOCK ALL SCHOOL DOORS, one door entrance with metal detector, I don't care how much it costs, these are our children that need to be protected. Cost, the obnoxious amount spent on campaign funds, that we all ignore, can go toward this.