[Jacob85]

Interesting that these other countries all have people with mental health issues but don’t have the problems we do with gun violence. We certainly need to focus on stricter gun laws!

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive

We geezers certainly do have all the answers--even if most of those answers contradict the answers of others. But not only do we solve nothing, for the most part we cannot even really define the problem. Mostly we just fall back on our prejudices.

Sometimes it pays to get closer to the source. I had a conversation with my granddaughter some time ago, really about social skills but applicable here too. Her statement? "The reason that so many people of my generation are such total losers socially is because they never really learned HOW. Their "socialization" is social media".

That deserves some careful pondering, from a couple of aspects. Social media in some part (large part?) has become a surrogate parent to kids since--oh--the mid 1990s or so. A kid behind a screen can be anything he or she wants to be, and convince others that he is who he portrays himself as being. He's rarely if ever in personal contact with many of those online "friends" so he doesn't worry too much about being outed as a phony. His world probably--and social life certainly--are words on a screen. Personally he may be someone who other kids pick on, or who lags behind in school, or whatever. But he doesn't have the social skills to deal with those issues in person, so he just hides from them while building up his social media persona.

Couple that with the fact that no matter how far out or bizarre someone's ideas are, he or she can find uncountable sources on the internet that agree with his ideas. He doesn't discuss them in person with the people he encounters in daily life but he DOES discuss them with like-minded people on social media. He's not looking for information so much as validation (a common problem, even among us geezers), and he finds it. Doesn't matter how far out. The world is flat--people of one religion drink the blood of the children of another--One race will eliminate another race unless people who believe like HE believes intervene, etc. etc. His socialization is mainly with people with beliefs equally or even more bizarre than his. The REAL world--the world of face-to-face interactions with peers, practicing the skills needed to get along in daily life, knowing what to say and what not to say, becomes less and less important. It is a bad confluence of negativity. It is a bomb, in some cases, primed to go off.

Okay. Factor #2. A kid growing up in America today is taught to FEAR guns. Guns are EEEEEEVIL. Guns are SCARY. Only BAD people have guns. He hears it (if he hears anything) incessantly about it in school. So--here we have an insecure, alienated kid, saturated with bizarre ideas, who buys, borrows or steals a gun. His online persona portrays him as a swaggering bad guy. He takes the gun and becomes that guy. Maybe he only wants to scare people (how many kids bring guns to school just to show other kids?). Maybe his bizarre ideas and viewpoints dictate that violence is the answer to whatever his twisted mind tells him the problem happens to be.

And the bomb goes off.

It is no coincidence that the rise in these school shootings parallels the rise in social media usage, and even more precisely, the lack of effective parenting in lieu of the kid living on social media. They're not taught much else--at least not much else that sticks. An alienated kid or young adult filled with bizarre ideas is a catastrophe waiting to happen. And in all too many cases, it does.

Okay. Even if the admittedly-dramatized scenario above is largely true (and I believe, generally, that it is) just knowing it does not solve the problem. It all goes back to the parents BEING parents, teaching their kids proper socialization and just plain HUMAN interaction, and monitoring the poison that they all too often find on the internet. Banning or limiting guns is not the answer (though I believe that there are a lot of things we can do to minimize the possibility of school shootings). It will probably take as long to fix this problem as it did to create it in the first place. But until we fix the FAMILIES, this problem will remain.

Almost nothing you posted applies to me or my family. I seriously doubt it applies to most families.

I do not accept your daughter as a expert in the problems of America. Sorry, but you start saying how people are just expressing their opinions and then expressed yours and your daughters (and you seemed to present your daughter as a expert witness in sociology.

And, I would suggest that social media, video games, et al, are just as prevalent around the world as they are here, yet, 4% of worlds population accounts for 99.9% of the class room murders.

If you want an opinion, the gun rights argument is the root of the problem. It is used to scare gun owners into hating people that want to stop th murder children. Listening to the "gun rights" extremists, it seems they don't think children live are as important as shooting deer or blowing up water melons.

Now, that was OVER THE TOP on my part. Which I did very intentionally to explain why people that want to solve the problem are so frustrated.

Imagine, mass murders will just take cars and drive then into the school to kill children if that is what they want to do.

[Diverdave]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

Sorry, this shooter did not lie on the background check, Texas doesn’t require one. He just turned 18 and legally purchased 2 ar15s a day later and then killed 21 people.

It’s hard to enforce laws that don’t exist.

To sell a gun at a retail level requires a FFL, Federal Firearms License. Federal law (not Texas) requires a FBI background check prior to purchasing any Firearm. There is no way that you can buy a gun from a retailer or any responsible gun owner anywhere in the US without a FBI background check. I know, I had my FFL for several years and the FBI made regular inspection visits. I would risk serious jail time if I couldn't account for every gun and produce the FFL background check for every purchase. If a private individual sells a gun without going through a FFL dealer they can be held responsible for whatever is done with that firearm. You would be insane to take that risk and end up in jail for what happened with the gun you sold.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Jacob85

Interesting that these other countries all have people with mental health issues but don’t have the problems we do with gun violence. We certainly need to focus on stricter gun laws!

I wonder why certain people are so averse to universal background checks. It's almost as though they're afraid someone will find out they've done something wrong.

Universal background checks, RE-classifying AR-15s as assault weapons (that's how they were, before they were DEclassified as assault weapons), and banning same-day sales of firearms at gun shows (because of the universal background check requirement) would be a good start.

[dewilson58]

Originally Posted by Diverdave

To sell a gun at a retail level requires a FFL, Federal Firearms License. Federal law (not Texas) requires a FBI background check prior to purchasing any Firearm. There is no way that you can buy a gun from a retailer or any responsible gun owner anywhere in the US without a FBI background check. I know, I had my FFL for several years and the FBI made regular inspection visits. I would risk serious jail time if I couldn't account for every gun and produce the FFL background check for every purchase. If a private individual sells a gun without going through a FFL dealer they can be held responsible for whatever is done with that firearm. You would be insane to take that risk and end up in jail for what happened with the gun you sold.

Yes, but facts do not fit everyone's agenda.

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by Cyndee@twc.com

Guns cant shot them selves some one has too pull the trigger. Take away guns -if they want to kill they do so another way , baseball bats, cars knives . anything/. We had a killer drive into a parade, In New york they push you in front of a on coming train. We need to have stable families and teach respect. Bring GOD back into the schoo;ws

So, guns don't make it easier to kill people? You seriously believe an 18 year old could take a baseball bat into a school and kill 19 children in minutes - I would pay to see that.

Give me a break, at least have enough compassion to be sensible. Yes, people who want to kill will find a way to kill - guns just make it easier and more efficient.

Maybe there is a reason the pentagon is not shipping a massive amounts of bats to the Ukraine.

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

Almost nothing you posted applies to me or my family. I seriously doubt it applies to most families.

I do not accept your daughter as a expert in the problems of America. Sorry, but you start saying how people are just expressing their opinions and then expressed yours and your daughters (and you seemed to present your daughter as a expert witness in sociology.

And, I would suggest that social media, video games, et al, are just as prevalent around the world as they are here, yet, 4% of worlds population accounts for 99.9% of the class room murders.

If you want an opinion, the gun rights argument is the root of the problem. It is used to scare gun owners into hating people that want to stop th murder children. Listening to the "gun rights" extremists, it seems they don't think children live are as important as shooting deer or blowing up water melons.

Now, that was OVER THE TOP on my part. Which I did very intentionally to explain why people that want to solve the problem are so frustrated.

Imagine, mass murders will just take cars and drive then into the school to kill children if that is what they want to do.

Granddaughter.

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by dewilson58

Yes, but facts do not fit everyone's agenda.

One of the more cogent posts in this thread, in my opinion.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Diverdave

To sell a gun at a retail level requires a FFL, Federal Firearms License. Federal law (not Texas) requires a FBI background check prior to purchasing any Firearm. There is no way that you can buy a gun from a retailer or any responsible gun owner anywhere in the US without a FBI background check. I know, I had my FFL for several years and the FBI made regular inspection visits. I would risk serious jail time if I couldn't account for every gun and produce the FFL background check for every purchase. If a private individual sells a gun without going through a FFL dealer they can be held responsible for whatever is done with that firearm. You would be insane to take that risk and end up in jail for what happened with the gun you sold.

You're not required to be a licensed retail gun seller to sell guns to people. But IF you are one, you must run a check on your customer.

Only some states have regulations requiring private sales go through licensed dealers.

It isn't a universal thing. That's why people are pushing for universal background checks. Universal meaning - anyone selling a firearm needs to run a check on their customer or they are violating the law.

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by Diverdave

To sell a gun at a retail level requires a FFL, Federal Firearms License. Federal law (not Texas) requires a FBI background check prior to purchasing any Firearm. There is no way that you can buy a gun from a retailer or any responsible gun owner anywhere in the US without a FBI background check. I know, I had my FFL for several years and the FBI made regular inspection visits. I would risk serious jail time if I couldn't account for every gun and produce the FFL background check for every purchase. If a private individual sells a gun without going through a FFL dealer they can be held responsible for whatever is done with that firearm. You would be insane to take that risk and end up in jail for what happened with the gun you sold.

I didn't say they didn't take the background test - I said it appears they passed it. If his juvenile record is sealed (I don't know if background checks can break that seal) and he just turned 18 2 days previously, chances are he did not have any priors that would have raised a flag. So, my assumption (based on what I have read and heard) is that he LEGALLY obtained the guns and 450 rounds of ammo.

And I COMPLETELY agree with you. ANYONE that sells a firearm that is then used to murder someone should be charged with accessory to murder.

[MartinSE]

"If you take away their guns they will just use bats".

Question, why is the pentagon not sending more bats to the Ukraine.

[MartinSE]

How about instead of arming teachers that don't want it and are not competent, let's give all the kids 9mm handguns when they get to school. Replace the library with a shooting range and have them check them back in when they go home.

What could go wrong with a class full of 9 year olds armed with 9mm's. After all I don't recall any age limits on the 2nd amendment.

Even this 18 year old murderer would not be crazy enough to go into a room full of armed 9 year olds.

[Burgy]

I don't think the right to bear arms should include Uzzi's, AR rifles etc. and being so easy to get for a newly18 year old. It wouldn't fix everything but might cut down on MASS shootings and police waiting an hour for backup

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

I wonder why certain people are so averse to universal background checks. It's almost as though they're afraid someone will find out they've done something wrong.

Universal background checks, RE-classifying AR-15s as assault weapons (that's how they were, before they were DEclassified as assault weapons), and banning same-day sales of firearms at gun shows (because of the universal background check requirement) would be a good start.

One argument I have heard is that they do not want to be "on a list" because the government will send agents out to "collect" their guns.

I don't buy it, but it was at least a reason I could understand some people feeling strongly about. There are studies in history that show one of the first steps of an autocrat is to take away peoples guns. Hence all the claims Obama was "coming for our guns" - even though more guns were sold under Obama than under Bush and no one ever reported having feds come take their guns away. Just saying.

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

You're not required to be a licensed retail gun seller to sell guns to people. But IF you are one, you must run a check on your customer.

Only some states have regulations requiring private sales go through licensed dealers.

It isn't a universal thing. That's why people are pushing for universal background checks. Universal meaning - anyone selling a firearm needs to run a check on their customer or they are violating the law.

True, and I think Universal background checks could help.

In addition, the doctor patient confidentiality should be considered, and healthcare professionals should be required to check a box saying, "recommended for gun purchase" or "not recommended for gun purchase". That keeps the why private, but could help with background checks. Of course, that has problems too - like a doctor doesn't want ANYONE to get guns, or a doctor wants EVERYONE to get guns. etc. etc. etc.

No solution is perfect.