[MartinSE]

My wife and I had a hour long discussion about the root cause of gun violence in this country today.

This would also explain why so many people believe it is the loss of "faith" that is the problem. The decline of devout Christians happened in the same time period. Which was the cause, can be debated.

This also contains many of the elements I have heard/read on here constantly by my conservative friends. I find myself agreeing with many of their points.

More and more it seems to us that the main thing, the most significant thing that changed was not the growth of the number of guns (that is just a symptom, not a cause) but what changed over the past 50 years is the destruction of the "middle class".

Back in the "good old days" most middle class families had a single bread winner. Not so much today.

Back in the good old days people were optimistic about making a better future for their kids. Not so much today.

Back in the good old days women could CHOOSE to follow a career (or any job) or stay home. Not so much today.

Most people today are pessimistic about the future and they raise their children with that pessimism, frustration and anger. That infects their children with despair, depression, anxiety, apathy and anger. And those children typically don't have a stay at home parent to support them and so they learn from peers, social media and the rage panderers. All of which feed on clicks which are driven by anger and fear.

Back in the good old days kids grew up with positive role models of success (Father knows best, Beaver Cleaver, etc, etc, etc) and positive parents that worked hard but for a reason - to make a better life for their children.

Today, most shows are depressing - post-apocolypse types and shows where the law enforcement officers that used to be like the sheriff of Mayberry, compared to today law enforcement "heroes" often that step outside the system (break the law) to catch the bad guy. Some even are the bad guy (I forget the name but there is a successful show where a serial killer helps the cops catch bad guys, or a show where a school professor turns to making and selling drugs, etc. )

The entire future has shifted from work hard and you can succeed type of optimistic parents to angry and frustrated parents that don't have the time or energy to raise their own kids. So, the kids growing up now go to school fearing they may end up murdered (and they are not always wrong).

Constant stress like that can be crippling and lead to "acting out". They learn to NOT trust the system, because the system is broken and doesn't care about them. No one cares about them, they have been murdered at school for over 20 years now and it appears no one is doing anything to save them. Even their parent(s) abandon them every day to make a living. In the "good old days" parents also worked their ass off and often kids felt abandoned, but then the reason was (in teh background) their parents were working so hard as a way to help their children. Today, their parents are working that hard because of the children - it is expensive to raise children - much more so than in the "good old days". So, the kids have to take on that guilt also - they don't have parents because of them.

Obviously am not saying EVERYONE. I am saying most of the middle class - when there was one.

And that entire change we believe comes about because of the growing death of the middle class. The inevitable result of more and more concentration of wealth in the few. More and more both spouses HAVE to work - not to get ahead, but to survive. And even that is often not enough. We have a growing homeless problem that kids in big cities see everyday. And, they are not just the mental patients, they are not just the lazy "bums" or "hobos" we grew up with. Many are/were upper middle class. I know, I was one of the homeless and it happened suddenly. Just before I had been making 6 figures as an IT consultant. It can and does disappear. When kids see that upper middle class family that went to their school last year - it takes a toll on their belief that they can work hard and succeed. Why brother when everyone they know is working hard and falling behind.

It is a very toxic atmosphere we live in and it leads to very toxic life styles. As old folks from the "good old days" we are very resilient - because most of us grew top in that positive environment. Not all families were my three sons, but the community environment was generally - "this too will pass ,and things will get better". Now it is - things are only going to get worse, nothing I do can change anything. Etc. It is hard to understand what is wrong with this "lazy generation". Why are they not all positive, happy and working to make a better future - we think and say. Which just makes it worse for the children and grand children, because many of us are constantly telling them with these comments that they are lazy failures. Some become broken, and strike out. Guns can then become the tool to express their anger and frustration at the world and everyone in it. Guns give them the power to control their lives. Guns help them be seen. They become important.

I remember a dog trainer telling me, dogs want attention. They will behave to get it, if that doesn't work they will misbehave - but they will get attention, one way or the other. Same can be said for people, especially children.

So, why doesn't this happen in other countries? Well, many of the 1st world countries don't have the disparage in wealth - another thing no so great the US leads in. And combined MOST other countries don't have a plethora of guns easily available. So, when the depressed/angry what ever act out, they have to find other means, because they don't have the easy access to guns.

Anyway, it's just a thought.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe

Unfortunately that was not clear in the original reply.

Not sure what this has to do with my post, seems to "muddy the waters"

Well not quite. In order to purchase a firearm in Texas, you need either a driver's license or a Texas State ID (link) for which you need proof of the following:

U.S. Citizenship or, if you are not a U.S. Citizen, evidence of lawful presence.
Texas Residency
Identity and
Social Security Number

So BEFORE you can even buy a gun in Texas, you have to either meet the requirements of a driver's license or have lawfully obtained a Texas State ID. THEN you still need to pass a FEDERALLY required background check if purchasing from a gun dealer as this killer did. Oh and by the way, my original request still stands, please provide proof that it is easier to buy a gun legally than to get a driver's license "in many states". The Texas example doesn't work.


Interesting. I too have been trained in multiple methodologies such as Root Cause Analysis and Six Sigma. What is consistent is identifying the problem and sustainable fixes. Handling "low hanging fruit" is easy in a company for example, where the "bosses" have the ability to shutdown an operation temporarily while these interim fixes are implemented. However, we are not talking about a company with a somewhat limited set of stakeholders but a country with so many more different stakeholders.

I don't know what Root Cause Analysis and Six Sigma is. But I do know how to do a google search and check actual case law and state statutes and regulations.

Your information is correct ONLY as it applies to licensed firearms dealers. It doesn't apply to private sales, or gun shows in Texas. Anyone can buy a gun at a gun show, no background check, no license or ID necessary.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by MDLNB

Taking all of what you said at face value, as being possibly being accurate to an extent, I suggest something that many should consider. Instead of comparing stats, try comparing lifestyles of the different countries compared to ours. And I am not attempting to belittle these tragedies by saying they are minor compared to other causes of deaths in our country. Our lifestyle, even at what is considered poverty level is better than most European or other countries. Our poverty level families live as well as many middle class families in other countries. Just pointing out what I have personally observed living most of my life overseas.

"Extreme wealth disparity" is a myth used by a few for other purposes that I can't say on here without being punished. We have a greater opportunity to succeed in this country than anywhere else. The only excuse is self inflicted lack of motivation to excel.

In my opinion (and I know I will be corrected if thought wrong) one reason for such violence and lack of respect for others is that many young folks are not busy or occupied enough. Growing up, my generation mostly worked in some manner. We had paper routes, mowed lawns, collected refundable sofa bottle deposits, washed cars, pulled weeds, lemonade stands, harvested tobacco, or other crops, etc. When we were young, you could get a paying job at age 14 with a workers permit in my state. Keeping kids busy gives them self-respect and their mind focused on goals.

Of course, there has always been violence in the world, ever since Cain and Able.

As to your 2nd paragraph.......Wealth disparity is NOT a myth or even something in dispute or even close to being political. It IS a STATISTICAL fact that can be looked up for EVERY COUNTRY for COMPARISON purposes. Also another statistic..... the US is 30th or less in UPWARD MOBILITY. Just Google the charts on this!

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by jebartle

LOCK ALL SCHOOL DOORS, one door entrance with metal detector, I don't care how much it costs, these are our children that need to be protected. Cost, the obnoxious amount spent on campaign funds, that we all ignore, can go toward this.

And when Johnny brings a ghost gun to school and hides the ammo in his hat or shoes (bypassing the metal detectors), the police will be locked out when he shoots up his science class.

[dewilson58]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

Anyway, it's just a thought.

You have over 80 posts in this thread...............are you tired yet??

[jimjamuser]

True that !

[Sarah_W]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

Gee whiz Batwoman! Somehow banana magazine does NOT have the same nice ring to it as BANANA CLIP. And the logic of blaming dems for the recent increase to 400,000 guns in civilian US hands seems a little........shall we say WEAK. There is some other reason for that increase? One religion expert recently tossed out a theory something like.........the religious right-wing uses GUNS as a kind of "virtue signaling". I assume that this lets them find ACCEPTANCE within that religious right. The young man whispers into the fair maiden's ear, "You like GUNS, I like GUNS, let's .........get married and make little right-wing babies"!
.........That is just one theory. I am not sure myself what has caused this recent increase. I need to further ponder that?

Yeah, banana mag sounds odd, doesn't it? I can't ignore the significant uptick in firearms sales since January of 2020 and the rabid hoarding of ammunition. The shear number of first time gun buyers is/was hugely significant. That tells me people were and still are afraid and feel vulnerable. A high percentage of my students relate these feelings to me. When the pandemic began I lived 40 miles north of Los Angeles. Hoarding of common household items became a serious problem. People were actually hurting other people in stores. Crime rose dramatically with home invasions. By mid 2020 what the future held was anyones guess. I lived with my cousin and we made risk assessments of our home. We made contingency plans. Obviously, I feel quite capable of defending my home, but what about beyond? CA's Governor shut down gun shops for a while and all of the sudden we knew exactly what its like to not be able to buy ammo. Being in "the business" I had professional contacts and I made sure not to fall below 1,000 rounds in any caliber. I have to have ammo to teach and of course for my own needs.

It disturbs me when evil people, criminals conduct their heinous crimes, killing innocents, especially children. To the core. Then our Legislators want to tell me that I can't have this gun or that gun. Not because of my conduct or my behavior but because of the conduct of an evil person.

i can't accept their reasoning.

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by Sarah_W

I think it's important to look at our history prior to 1787 and what led up to the writing of the Constitution. Arguably the path was set with the Stamp Act of 1765, converging in Concord and Lexington in 1775 as the British moved to disarm Americans. Our Revolutionary War lasted 8 years and they were very hard desperate years. As Patrick Henry famously said, "I know not what path others may take, but for me, give me Liberty or give me Death.". That sentence sums up our quest for Independence and self-determination. John Dickinson's name has been lost to history for most Americans, but his importance for his time can't be understated. He wrote the grievances to King George, which are delineated in our Declaration of Independence, as well as the Articles of Confederation. But, after eight years of governing this new nation under the Articles it was clear it didn't work and needed to be fixed.

In 1787, 12 of the 13 states sent delegates to Philadelphia with one directive, fix the Articles. It was clear they were not authorized to do anything else. The debates ensued and it didn't take long for them to recognize that the Articles were not salvageable. The debates continued and they drafted the Constitution. Individual citizens Rights were not included.

I think the heart of the matter, when it comes to the Bill of Rights, comes to Federalism versus Anti-Federalism. I can really appreciate that they were able to work together to create our Freedom documents. I think we can all understand that surviving eight years of war with the most powerful government and most powerful military of their time might leave them resistant to create another government that might oppress them some day (Anti-Federalists). We can also understand the need of having a strong government and global presence (Federalists). The leading Federalists, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, John Adams and more did not want a Bill of Rights. Anti-Federalists, Patrick Henry, Daniel Webster, Thomas Jefferson, did not want a strong central government and fought for a Bill of Rights to be included.

It is not difficult to get into the hearts and minds of our Founding Fathers. So much of it is documented. James Madison knew they were doing historic work and transcribed all of their debates. They can be read in a bound book that is 600 type written pages. There are other books on the debates. We have the writings of John Dickinson, Joseph Story, Daniel Webster and so many more. Between 1776 and 1826, James Madison and Thomas Jefferson wrote 1,250 letters to each other. Today that is three volumes.

Knowing that their government sought to disarm them; knowing that they fought eight long years against their government for Independence from oppressive government agendas; and knowing that absolute power corrupts absolutely, I understand the need to enshrine certain Rights with the goal of never having the same oppression. It was required that all 13 states ratify the new Constitution and it took 10 of 13 to pass the Amendments. The Framers heard the message loud and clear that it would not get ratified if the Individual Rights were not included. Madison presented 19 Amendment to the House, to appease the Anti-Federalists. The House presented 17 Amendments to the Senate who paired them down to 12, rewriting some before sending them to the states. The States approved 10 of the Amendments which became our Bill of Rights. One of the Amendments that allowed Congress to give themselves a raise remained unpassed until 1992 when it became our 27th Amendment.

So, I totally understand the very important need to keep and bear arms from the perspective of our Founding Fathers if only for the need to once again face off with an oppressive government. Having arms for the purpose of hunting and self-defense would not even have been a debate or conversation in 1787, it would have been a given, as simply common sense. As I've mentioned, I have nearly 70 books in my library devoted on the Constitution. Personally, I think I am in between the Federalists and Anti-Federalists.

Thank you for that excellent summary. I agree with you, and every thing you said. I do think, from my own readings that there was a lot of "closed door" compromises with slavery, rights, and more - and they all knew it would require compromises on both sides. I also believe they included the ability to modify the constitution specify so changes could be made after the bare minimum they could get passed was actually passed.
---

I have NO desire to do away with gun ownership, as a practical matter and as a "it doesn't really matter" matter. Responsible good people use guns responsibly. Duh. It is the minority of bad actors that causes everyone else to suffer.

I call it my "speed bump theory" of social engineering.

That goes like this, shopping centers have to slow down the few reckless speeders that are endangering the stores customers and driving their insurance through the roof. The responsible people are driving carefully, and not causing any problems. But that small minority races through the parking lot. So, enter speed bumps. It slows down the responsible customers, it even causes damage to the but - but it works enough (not perfect but good enough) to make the insurance company happy, and so we all are punished because of the actions of the few. Eventually, most people drive slowly (social engineered) enough to be "safe" in the parking lots - with or with out the speed bumps.

Sounds to me kind of like the situation we are in with guns. The problem is, how do we solve the problem without punishing the responsible people...

Again, thank you, you seem to be a voice of reason and knowledge in a field of anger and chaos. I look forward to learning more from you.

[dewilson58]

Originally Posted by dewilson58

You have over 80 posts in this thread...............are you tired yet??

Guess not.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Two Bills

From what I can see, most present day 'Texans' were on the other side at the Alamo!

That is just a "teeny, tiny" bit racist. So, I will not comment.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

I agree it is at least A cause. Whether it is the root cause, I don't know. I think the root cause is more like cultural. Where we used to have a thriving middle class, and people (my parents and grand parents) were obsessed with working hard so I could have a better life than they did. There was a sense of manifest destiny and it seemed even politicians worked together and worked out their disagreements.

Somewhere along the way, we lost our dream. Making money became the preferred religion and everyone was "out for themselves. From there we have just spiraled downhill. I think the violence is just frustration and anger expressing itself.

We began our long list of "wars" - war on drugs, war on poverty, war on whatever the current thing someone wants to pour our tax dollars into and the only qualification was you had to guarantee to need MORE money if you want to get the grant.

Yes, greed became good..........practically a religion.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Scbang

Yes you can not stop all the killings but why do we make it so easy to kill so many so fast?

Sad

That is the root of this discussion!

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Johnsocat

We are not talking about nukes, cruise missiles and tanks... we are talking about guns...
Disregard my point with semantics because that solves the problem under discussion?

It's not semantics. It's the point of the discussion. You argue about the unconstitutionality of restricting the right to bear arms.

"Arms" have an actual meaning. A definition. It means weapons. It doesn't mean guns. It means weapons. It is a generic term that is NOT more specifically defined in the Constitution.

So MartinSE's point is 100% valid. You say we all have the right to bear arms. Arms means weapons. It does not mean guns, exclusively. It is also not a matter of semantics. It is a matter of law.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Scbang

I absolutely agree with your observation. Only problem is that your observation is applicable to most of other developed countries and they don't have same mass shooting problem like us. What don't they have? GUNS..

SAD

yes, that IS what I have been saying to prove my opinion!

[Taltarzac725]

Would the Founding Fathers want the "well-regulated militia" to have cannons? Probably if they were to be able to meet a similarly armed foe. How about private citizens having cannon? Maybe if they were captains of legal pirate ships Privateers who faced other ships with cannon but just some person in some city or town? I kind of doubt they were let just anyone own a cannon.